indi_dog Posted May 5, 2007 Share Posted May 5, 2007 Indi has been having some issues with strange dogs approaching her, particularly while on the lead. She will not approach a strange dog, really she's not interested in strange dogs - she has always preferred people over dogs any day. However, when a strange dog approaches her, she will go stiff, the tail goes up and the ears go back. If the dog doesn't back off, and starts jumping around and getting in her face, she will eyeball them and snap and try to drive them away. Once they are out of her zone, she settles down and just chills out (completely ignoring the other dog). She is never the instigator. I find that if I pull her leash tight when she's in the "eyeballing" stage, she will start snapping and growling as soon as she feels the leash go tight. Same thing goes if I grab her collar. (therefore I don't do this anymore) She will, however, be quite happy to lie next to, or be close to a strange dog providing it has no interest in her (ie, they can be standing side by side so long as the other dog has no interest in her). She gets along great with dogs that she has known for months, or with dogs who ignore her. She has no issues being with the working kelpies and border collies we do herding with either - I find they are somewhat aloof like her when it comes to other dogs, like they have some sort of mutual understanding going with each other that agrees with Indi. Indi used to be wonderful with other dogs up until she was chased by three very boisterous dogs and cornered. They only wanted to play with her, but she was literally cowering in the corner with the tail between her legs. After that she lost most of her easy going attitude with strange dogs Once she gets to know dogs over a period of time however, she is fine with them. She's great with people though, and will happily approach anyone for a pat. People are always complimenting us on her gentle nature (she is a quiet girl for 19 months) What do you think? Could one incident where she was frightened by dogs have turned her against all strange dogs? Does this sound like a fear based reaction? And yes I will be searching for a trainer to help with this issue too I don't expect her to love every single dog that meets her, I just want her to be able to meet other dogs calmly and without stressing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted May 5, 2007 Share Posted May 5, 2007 Could one incident where she was frightened by dogs have turned her against all strange dogs? Yes, this can happen. It can also be exacerbated by the owner (eg. when you tense and apply tension to the lead) and without proper management can become learnt and habitual. Does this sound like a fear based reaction? Based on your description, yes. And yes I will be searching for a trainer to help with this issue too I don't expect her to love every single dog that meets her, I just want her to be able to meet other dogs calmly and without stressing. Great attitude all round, Indi. :mad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted May 5, 2007 Share Posted May 5, 2007 Ditto what Erny said- sorry to hear about her experiences with the boisterous dogs, I'm sure with the right assistance, you'll be able to resolve this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indi_dog Posted May 5, 2007 Author Share Posted May 5, 2007 (edited) Thanks guys Why does applying tension to the leash or collar put her into "I'm going to snap and growl and lunge" mode instantly? Is it because she knows that I'm going to hold her back anyway, so she can pretend she is a tuff dog and hopefully bluff the other dog into leaving her alone? Unfortunately I think I started this habit, as I used to tense the leash up when meeting a strange dog so that she couldn't get in their face (until it was pointed out to me) So far I've been ignoring the behaviour (ie. not pandering to her when she starts stressing) or when I see the tail go up, I do a u-turn on the spot and walk the other way. If she's still relaxed I ask her to do a "watch" on me too, which she gets rewarded for. It's just depressing that after trying so hard to socialise her from the very start, one experience has thrown it all out of whack. ** and editing to add - if anyone has a good recommendation of a trainer who can help me with this specific problem, then please feel free to recommend away I live about half hour drive west of Melbourne Edited May 5, 2007 by indi_dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted May 5, 2007 Share Posted May 5, 2007 Why does applying tension to the leash or collar put her into "I'm going to snap and growl and lunge" mode instantly? Is it because she knows that I'm going to hold her back anyway, so she can pretend she is a tuff dog and hopefully bluff the other dog into leaving her alone? No ..... she'd be perceiving the tension through the lead to signal that you too think there's something to worry about. That, and possibly combined with the feeling of entrapment. No chance of flight, so she'll fight. Doing nothing about the behaviour doesn't help either. The other dog goes away and Indi thinks it is because of the way she reacted. Must have been ..... she remained unharmed, right? Get my drift? There are ways of dealing with this. Your behaviourist will be able to show you after he/she has worked out what is the best method for Indi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted May 5, 2007 Share Posted May 5, 2007 (edited) It's just depressing that after trying so hard to socialise her from the very start, one experience has thrown it all out of whack. A solid foundation of early socialisation may well stand Indi in good stead. Without that, Indi may be worse than she is now, or you might find that rehabilitation is more difficult, time consuming and less successful. So don't despair on it being lost - thank heavens it is there to act as a cushion/buffer for the unfortunate incident that has occurred and pat yourself on your back for ensuring that you instilled it in the first place. ** and editing to add - if anyone has a good recommendation of a trainer who can help me with this specific problem, then please feel free to recommend away I live about half hour drive west of Melbourne Not sure exactly where you mean ...... but I would unhesitatingly recommend Four Paws K9 Training (PM Kelpie-i). She is over Keilor Park way. I could help if you were interested, but the distance might be a bit awkward. Edited May 5, 2007 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indi_dog Posted May 5, 2007 Author Share Posted May 5, 2007 I have met Kelpie-i before when we did the Four Paws herding workshop - actually Indi and I go to Kepala Park alot because she likes the lagoon pool I'm mad, I complain when I have to drive anywhere for more than half an hour, but when it comes to any dog related thing I'll happily drive hours Saying that, Kepala Park is only about 35-40 minutes drive away for me. Thanks for explaining the leash tension thing. It's something I'd been wondering about for a while, but I'm no dog behaviourist so it had me stumped. Indi still sometimes surprises me with her reactions to different situations, probably because I am thinking about the problem from a human perspective I imagine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted May 5, 2007 Share Posted May 5, 2007 There must be some working dog thing going on Kaos is also mostly uninterested in other dogs. He will go and have a sniff and usually then ignore them. There are a few dogs he likes and wants to play with or does wiggly but hellos to, mostly these are either quieter older dogs or working Kelpies and Border Collies. Basically yeah other dogs that ignore him or act similarly. He is not keen on boisterous or really friendly dogs either that get in his face or dogs which try to dominate him and will snap at these. When I took him to agility he barked and snapped at some of the others when things got exciting/active with all the dogs running around. I think some of this was because I was stressed at being at agility as it is a VERY crazy atmosphere, very busy, and the same club I used to take Zoe to. I found I was stressed just going to this location, before I did anything with him which I am sure did not help at all. I am going to K9 Force in a few weeks to get some ideas on how to handle this. He is MUCH better than Zoe, he can meet other dogs and if I want to pass another dog on the street he is happy to pass and ignore them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indi_dog Posted May 5, 2007 Author Share Posted May 5, 2007 Hey Kavik, I was wondering about that too. My border collie book describes the breed as "not suffering fools lightly". Indi will NOT allow a jumpy, boisterous dog near her without any growls or teeth. However, she does like elderly dogs, or other working dogs because they seem to have the same sort of temperament as her (they will wander up to each other for a sniff, and then go and do their own thing). At Kepala Park, Indi is usually standing apart from the main "pack' of dogs, usually amusing herself by chasing the birds or a ball - or she just hangs with the humans! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted May 6, 2007 Share Posted May 6, 2007 We can travel over your way by arrangement as well. And again, agree with everything Erny said- getting scary huh!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted May 6, 2007 Share Posted May 6, 2007 I have been having this issue with Ed as well, especially this weekend, even with dogs he knows, and was going to post about it tonight! On the weekend for eg, he was terrified of Sway, the GD who he knows, he used to be fine with her when she was smaller but now he walks around her, avoids her and she accidentally fell on him and he got all shitty, and growly, he didnt touch her it was all noise, but its so confusing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted May 6, 2007 Share Posted May 6, 2007 I'll add some more info, hopefully then we can sought out his issue. I think he has the hots for for her, and she said no At one stage in the cabin, Sway was behind me being kept in the room behind a chair with me sitting on it. Sway would put her head under the chair, Eddie would look at her and slink and almost pace. He was hard up against the cabinets, they were maybe 3-4mtrs away from each other. Sometimes he would come close and be ok, other times he would look at her, out the corner of his eye and go all sooky like. At one stage Sway climbed over me and was half standing the couch. At my feet was Eddie, she slipped and landed over him, but not on him. He started to growl, shake his head and it appeared to be like the play fighting he does with Molly. No harm was done to eaither dog. In sperate crates in the marquee he never had an issue with her. On a long line he never had an issue with her, but we kept them apart but they did get close 1mtr i would say. At one stage they had a play fight as they ran into each other. Any ideas?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted May 6, 2007 Share Posted May 6, 2007 Thanks thats a much better explanation, silly me posted in a rush and left out stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted May 6, 2007 Share Posted May 6, 2007 Hi Erny...thanks for the recommendation Indi_dog, yes I met you that day at the herding workshop (just as everyone was leaving). I hope you enjoyed it. If you are still having problems with Indi, please give me a call or PM me. I have dealt with many of these types of problems before and can show you some good techniques on dealing with this type of situation. I do the private consults over at Kepala anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted May 6, 2007 Share Posted May 6, 2007 Thanks thats a much better explanation, silly me posted in a rush and left out stuff No answers to our problem, we want them to play together again. I still think she turned him down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted May 7, 2007 Share Posted May 7, 2007 hehehe He likes the back end of her for sure! Just scared of the front end! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted May 7, 2007 Share Posted May 7, 2007 heheheHe likes the back end of her for sure! Just scared of the front end! Sway prefered the Brindle boy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indi_dog Posted May 8, 2007 Author Share Posted May 8, 2007 Thanks for all the responses and help guys, we will let you know how we progress Indi frightened a small fluffy roaming around off leash today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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