Treats For Training

[leopuppy04]

Is there anyone here who is flatly opposed to using treats for training?

I know there are a few trainers out there that refuse to use treats and am curious as to why

[Cosmolo]

Definitely NOT me. But i have heard a few people argue at clubs that if treats get dropped on the ground, it will disadvantage other dogs when they go in that area/ ring to work. But i think thats silly- if the dogs working they should be focussed on you not on what is on the ground.

[leopuppy04]

Definitely NOT me. But i have heard a few people argue at clubs that if treats get dropped on the ground, it will disadvantage other dogs when they go in that area/ ring to work. But i think thats silly- if the dogs working they should be focussed on you not on what is on the ground.

the excuses some people have It's all about proofing after all

[Cosmolo]

Extending the topic a little though- i have heard a reasonable argument for not training in prey drive in some situations (even if the dog is prey driven) A trainer suggested to me that most average pet owners want to reduce drive so why would we train to increase drive in those dogs. He also commented that he is seeing more drive related aggression than he was 10- 20 years ago.

I had a client a while ago with a labrador that should have been a working dog- he could have done anything with the drive he had- customs, bomb squad retrieving, agility, obedience etc. BUT, the owners needed to reduce his drive straight away or he was going to be rehomed. So, we trained to calm him and reduce his drive rather than to increase it. It was the first dog where i thought it was a real shame- but the situation the dog was in was not conjusive to increasing his drive in any way

And on the food thing, another arguement is that the dog will always depend on the food- to which i say, your not using it properly if thats the case.

[Pippi]

Training is all about getting the dog to do something for you, for a reward that has a high value to that particular dog.

It makes no sense to not use treats, if food has a high value to the dog and they will do anything for food. Conversely, the same applies if the dog places a high value on toys or play or whatever it may be. A good trainer IMO will use whatever works for that dog.

It is also possible to transfer the value a dog may have for food to another item, if you really don't want to use food. I will sometimes use this technique to get a dog to transfer the value for food to a toy, when the handler wants their dog to play with toys or when I would prefer to train in prey drive rather than food drive.

[Pippi]

Extending the topic a little though- i have heard a reasonable argument for not training in prey drive in some situations (even if the dog is prey driven) A trainer suggested to me that most average pet owners want to reduce drive so why would we train to increase drive in those dogs. He also commented that he is seeing more drive related aggression than he was 10- 20 years ago.

Interesting, I have had people say to me that they would rather not train their dogs in prey drive, because they go 'over the top' (their words) and they then cannot handle them. I think it is necessary to look at not only the dog but also the handler and the handler limitations. If the handler is severely limited by their experience with dogs, e.g. this may be their first dog, then maybe it is better not to train in drive.

Here's something to ponder on - what about the argument that says if you have a high prey drive dog and try to suppress that drive, then you are asking for trouble - the dog needs to express that natural drive in some way and if he is unable to do that then you are likely to see aggression demonstrated in unacceptable ways.

[Cosmolo]

Completely agree with you Pippi- handler limitations are very important as not everyone has the ability to train in drive well. And i also agree with the possibility that supression of that drive can result in problems. I tell people they can't inhibit the dog forever and that there needs to be some outlet for the dogs drive BUT, i wouldn't encourage them to do things to increase or build the drive, only to work with what they've got in ways that they can deal with. I love working in and building drive myself and do it with many clients- but its not suitable for all of them.

As far as food goes, another arguement would be a dog thats trained in food refusal not to accept food without a command- it would be annoying to me to have to give an additional command to give the dog a reward which would then not be as well timed. My dogs don't have food refusal in that way so its not an issue for me.

[cramet]

i think it depends on the dog

some dogs do very good with out food some dont its more of a focus issue for dogs that use food

i rather use praise with my dogs because i dont need to worry about focus they do whats asked and needed of them

[wheres my rock]

we use food toys pats life rewards whatever is most appropriate at the time i think life rewards are often over looked i always get my dogs to do something before being let out let in let off to run etc

i

[Erny]

I use anything and everything - whatever works best for the dog and usually a mixture. But the trick IMO is to be aware of what phase of training you are in (ie teaching/training/proofing); what schedule of reinforcement you're on and whether the effort your dog just gave you is worth high, medium, low (or nil) reward.

The biggest problem I find with food treats is that it is easily dispensed and dogs often grovel and do whatever their owners ask of them to get it. So they get caught up with always having to have it else their dog blows them off. The food becomes a crutch because the owners find it more awkward to work beyond food than to give in and just dole it out like there's no tomorrow. But they still think their dog is "trained".

Having said this - if they are happy with that and provided they always maintain control of their dog (ie on-lead) then there probably isn't a problem. Unless something unexpected occurs, such as the lead giving way or the gate being left ajar etc. etc. It is often those times (for some) that they realise they need to increase their dog's obedience reliability. Hopefully nothing nasty occurs to render this reaction "too late".

Edited May 4, 2007 by Erny

[wheres my rock]

we see the same with the chain the og becomes so reliant on reminders that if the collar isnt on they blow them off.

I find that what erny said about food is one of the biggest problems with its use it must be the motivation for doing the work it has to be the rewadr and people get this confused f used correctly you can get just as higher level of reliability as you can using other methods

[Erny]

we see the same with the chain the og becomes so reliant on reminders that if the collar isnt on they blow them off.

In many cases that would be the result of ineffective corrections (ETA: and perhaps inadequate/badly timed rewards). I have seen the same thing with verbal corrections as well.

Edited ...... because IMO corrections are only a small part of training - IF they are applied timely and effectively. ;)

Edited May 4, 2007 by Erny

[wheres my rock]

same as te dog relying on food is ineffective use

[The Spotted Devil]

These threads are very interesting...nice to get the opinion of others.

My old ACD worked for praise or a look - she was so food obsessed she couldn't concentrate at all if I used food treats. I used a tricks routine as a job well done which is different, but it worked.

With my lad, I have mostly used praise which he responds beautifully to and just used a treat for 'explaining' the desired behaviour - that said, we are only at a rather basic stage but I like to mix it up. Sometimes he gets a squeaky toy when he comes to me, other times a cuddle, other times a treat! In the house, I use a release as a reward so sitting nicely at the closed door is rewarded by being allowed to go where he wants.

I have just bought a clicker (thanks to all the contributors on the clicker thread) and have been having more fun with my Burmese cats! Ziggy's focus went out the window but it is proving useful for a few exercises and hopefully I will improve as well.

[Staranais]

Not me! I think food is great for getting a dog's attention when you're teaching something new. The only trainer I know who objected to using food at all was a very traditional trainer. From what I've seen most trainers these days seem quite happy (IMO sometimes too eager) to use food.

Having said that, I don't use food treats round the house as a reward for basic manners and simple requests. He gets praise and petting and "life rewards" for complying with simple requests round the house, since I just don't think I should have to fork out food rewards for that type of thing.

Spotted Devil, what are you teaching your cats to do? I got my first proper "sit" from my si-X male the other week, he's a pretty fast learner where food is concerned.

[wheres my rock]

i agree i love using food toys playing whatever it takes ai agree some classes are now to pushy to use food not everyones dog is a pig and some epople just find it too much to manage a dog a lead and a fist ful of treats

i used to love my piece of hose for reward my gsp loved two hose game and it was easy to concel it on your body usually under the arm and it was cheap though hubby did keep asking why the hose seemed to get shorter now and again

My current dog hasnt got the same toy drive bu its getting there food is his life and cuddles so thast what we use for rewards we also use life rewards for behaviour around the house and when we are out for things he knows well