Who Decides What You Do At Training?

[Cosmolo]

For those of you who train at a club, who do you feel makes th final decision as to what your dog does and doesn't do? Is it you or the instructor? This is of course assuming that the owner is not being unreasonable with a request or exercise (like taking an 8 week old pup through straight weavers for instance) and has been training with the club a period of time.

[MrsD]

Most of the people in our trialling class at our club are still handling their first dog & don't really have any idea of how to train most exercises, so they take direction from our OIC trainer who runs the class. However there are a couple of us who have trained dogs before, so we make the decisions about what to do with our dogs. For example last night the OIC was making us start retrieves over the jump for Open, most handlers she had to direct & tell them what to do but even though Jarrah & I had never done a retrieve over a jump before, I knew what my dog was capable of (higher standard than she was asking the others to do) so I told her what I was going to do & did it while she watched.

Edited May 3, 2007 by MrsD

[Sayreovi]

I mainly do my own thing now my dogs, i will still join in sometimes in classes if it will help me as well as my dogs.

We pretty much only do flyball (team training) and agility, i know what my dogs will do so i work on the things they have trouble with my own way but always take the advice of the instructors/triallers who give tips.

[Guest Piximatosis]

I started club training for agility with Brody only last week... I know already that I won't be following a few of their methods as I know my dog and some just won't work for him.

Just as a quick example, the instructor tried to insist that I use a target stick with Brody because he is small. Brody is a very nervous dog by nature, and although he has improved in leaps and bounds since I got him, it would take me weeks if not months to condition him to tolerate a stick swinging around him without quite literally wetting himself in terror... he's already in the process of being trained to send out to a target on the ground (flat white lid of a marg container) but a stick is too much to ask of him as an individual.

I can see the instructor's point, and maybe Brody won't ever reach competition level without using a target stick, maybe we'll struggle more with certain aspects but the point of this is for the little bloke to have fun. :D So while I certainly listen to and appreciate the advice of those with far more experience than I, it is exactly that, advice... when it comes down to it I know my dogs the best and I will take or leave methods accordingly.

Edited May 3, 2007 by Piximatosis

[wheres my rock]

i think most epopel at club just seem to follow blindly what they are told by the instructor im acualy surprised how often they sem shocked when i say you dont hvae to do that that way

I do my own thing i'll go in a class for a bit of distraction or to have somene else call left right but i still decide wehn i will reward when will stop and what i will and wont do.

How often do you see a dog doing great work with little reward then when the instructor says exercise finised thaty all sart praising like crazy yet the work at that time was crap

[JulesP]

Bit of both. I don't like tricks but have to show one to pass the class, so I had to do that. I did targetting because I could see some use in that.

I told the instructor not to do something last week as it was upsetting my dog. I will refuse to do something if I think it is going to stuff the dog up. I also did something that the instructor thought was wrong (and it is usually but I had a reason for it and it worked). Mmmm so I guess I decide!

[MrsD]

i think most epopel at club just seem to follow blindly what they are told by the instructor im acualy surprised how often they sem shocked when i say you dont hvae to do that that way

I do my own thing i'll go in a class for a bit of distraction or to have somene else call left right but i still decide wehn i will reward when will stop and what i will and wont do.

Absolutely, I make sure my dog listens to me, not the instructor by doing what I want to do, when heeling I keeping walking when they say halt, or doing a stand when they ask for a drop etc. I reward my dog when I feel it deserves it, even if I have to do something other than what the instructor is asking for to do so. Similarly if my dog hasnt done something correctly, I will persevere with it & make the dog do it again until it gets it right so I can reward it, regardless of whether the instructor has told the class to go onto another exercise or heel off again etc.

I think the reason that most people blindly follow the instructor is because they don't know any other way to train their dogs. Many people dont know how to train an exercise, so they look to the instructor for help. You will find that people who have trained more than 1 dog will probably choose what to do with their dog more, as will someone who reads alot of different books or gets different ideas on how to train, either in general or specific exercises. But most people are sheep & will do it the way the instructor suggests because they dont actually know any other way.

[Cosmolo]

Thanks for the responses. So what would you be inclined to do in a situation where you wanted to do a certain exercise in a particlar way, one instructor agrees, the head instructor says no and won't allow you to do it in the way you believe will work for your dog? In this case the instructor doesn't try to force an alternative on to you but rather, abandons the exercise completely. (and its an exercise that requires equipment so would be impossible to do at home)

[MrsD]

Thanks for the responses. So what would you be inclined to do in a situation where you wanted to do a certain exercise in a particlar way, one instructor agrees, the head instructor says no and won't allow you to do it in the way you believe will work for your dog? In this case the instructor doesn't try to force an alternative on to you but rather, abandons the exercise completely. (and its an exercise that requires equipment so would be impossible to do at home)

Seriously, the head instructor refuses to let you do something the way you want to do it? (assuming its not something cruel?)

Personally I'd change clubs .

[wheres my rock]

what was the exercise and wht did you want to do

It would depend if you wantd to force a dog through a piece of equipment then i would see why they wouldnt want that at club it may be against their policy

I havent had this fr a long time but the only time i have is when ive wanted to use food and the instructor doesnt agree and i just ignore them and use the food anyway and then went and foudn a club that would allow be to trian how i feel comfortable

so really t would depend on why they said no

[Cosmolo]

Putting a dog through a sock tunnel for the first time. Instructor disputed that a) there were three people assisting (me at one end calling dog through, OH putting dog in at other end and instructor holding cloth part of tunnel in place as we had folded it in half and made it half the length) b) that we are pushing the dog and expecting too much. The dog had been happily completing other obstacles after some initial gentle guidance and was excited and motivated (to the point where someone who had met her 3 weeks ago couldn't believe the difference in her attitude/ confidence) to do something but a little wary of this new obstacle as she had been with every other obstacle when she started them.

The instructor then requested that we do some other things with a normal tunnel which we did and seemed disapointed when the dog completed those exercises well- as it didn't gel with instructors theory. After completion of other exercises that instructor thought would assist (which the dog did brilliantly) still would not allow dog to attempt sock tunnel. Similar thing with dog walk a few weeks ago, dogs first time, a person either side to help and guide for safety (NOT dragging dog over walk) and told basically that dog should run over by self and if not doing such is not ready.

I have considered changing clubs many times, but can't find a club that trains at a convenient time thats not miles away. Because we work during training hours ourselves with our own clients, some of whom require after hours appoinments, its hard to co ordinate getting to a club.

[wheres my rock]

you'll get that whereevr you go unfortunately and the instructor probabaly was just concerned for the dog even if it was misguided

as for other clubs action dogs is wednesday night in doveton or you could book a few privte lessons just to get her goine on all the equipment it might be worth it and then you can go whan it suits you better

lea cogley and aldyth both have agility and so does robyn docker

[Cosmolo]

I don't believe that it was concern for the dog. I think the attitude has come about after they found out we're professional trainers- there have been other comments about this that make me very confident that thats the case.

[wheres my rock]

unfortunately clubs are clubs and theres always politics i would find somewhere where you can go teach the stuff then just use the club to consolidate it much easier that having to argue to get what you need

[Guest Steph & Bam]

Putting a dog through a sock tunnel for the first time. Instructor disputed that a) there were three people assisting (me at one end calling dog through, OH putting dog in at other end and instructor holding cloth part of tunnel in place as we had folded it in half and made it half the length) b) that we are pushing the dog and expecting too much. The dog had been happily completing other obstacles after some initial gentle guidance and was excited and motivated (to the point where someone who had met her 3 weeks ago couldn't believe the difference in her attitude/ confidence) to do something but a little wary of this new obstacle as she had been with every other obstacle when she started them.

The instructor then requested that we do some other things with a normal tunnel which we did and seemed disapointed when the dog completed those exercises well- as it didn't gel with instructors theory. After completion of other exercises that instructor thought would assist (which the dog did brilliantly) still would not allow dog to attempt sock tunnel. Similar thing with dog walk a few weeks ago, dogs first time, a person either side to help and guide for safety (NOT dragging dog over walk) and told basically that dog should run over by self and if not doing such is not ready.

This is the method I would expect for a dog that is unsure of what it's doing. I have a dog that is very much like this with new people and with new objects. It took me ages just to get him to chase a ball, let alone being ok with sticks, and normally the only way for him to see something is ok is for me to do it in front of him or to guide him through. It seems silly to me to say that you are expecting too much if the dog doesn't do it by him/her self.

ETA: I think the owner of the dog should have the right to decide yes this is ok for my dog or no it's not.

Edited May 3, 2007 by Steph & Bam

[wheres my rock]

its not always that easy what if the owner wanted to do something cruel or too hars then you wouldnt want them to have that freedon

we actually take the chute of and get them through the drum than add a flap at the end then a short chut then the long one if they are really worry warts

[wheres my rock]

ages ago at a club i saw a handler drag a dog by the ear to a scent pile because it had got a wrong article should this be allowed because the handler feels its the best method

there are times where it is good that an indtructor will step in and other times where they just want to throw their weight around

[J...]

I am incredibly lucky to go to a club who is very flexible with what we do with our dogs once we get to a level. I.e even in lower classes, if it is recognised that you are working well with your dog and getting results then you're able to be flexible providing it is not leading the other partipants astray.

Even as a 1st time dog owner I have a lot of say/discussion on how my dog gets trained/what I do with my dog. But we have none of the politics/one-upmanship or personal agendas that some clubs seem to deal with, and for that I am very grateful!

[Guest Steph & Bam]

its not always that easy what if the owner wanted to do something cruel or too hars then you wouldnt want them to have that freedon

Sorry, i didn't explain it the best I meant the instructor says 'this is how we'd like to train (insert command here) are you comfortable with this method'

So the owner clearly knows whats going on, and understands what is going to happen. Of course I'd expect the Instructor to say that's not on if the owner wanted to do something that was too cruel.

[wheres my rock]

we're the same feralpup our club is very easy going and we pretty much do as we please i can join in a class without question and i love that im over the bigger club politics

also cosmolo if you are new to te club then they dont really know you so may feel threatened by someone coming in and having knowledge

Edited May 3, 2007 by wheres my rock