Can A Dog Cope With More Then One Thing

[MrsD]

i havent relly delved into herding but cant see how it would stuff him up look at judys sheltie thast an oc and has i think three or four herding titles now

I think the problem is that obedience (working close to you, the same way as you move) tends to override the dogs natural herding instinct (working away from you, moving the opposite way to you ie balancing), so doing both at the same time could possibly confuse the dog. I think their comments weren't necessarily not to do obedience at all, more not to do it at the same time as the herding .

True - but wouldn't that be the same for agility too - working away from you?

I was told the same thing with Kinta - to stop all else and just do herding with her... .

I agree with you to a certian extent - yes, it does make it *initially* more difficult on the dog as they are now expected to think for themselves rather than wait on you for direction (to a degree). I think this is what they find hard - Leo has done heaps of obed, has no problems 'chasing' the sheep, but has difficulty when we ask him to 'do' something with the sheep as he is uncertian and *wants* direction.

But I think that once we overcome that hurdle, any obedience dog can also be a herding dog. There's also the advantage of the younger they meet the sheep the better

I think sometimes we underestimate the ability of our dogs to work in varying situations. If you can cope, I think the dogs can cope.

I agree totally about your comment earlier btw about the handler being confused & confusing the dog :D . There are lots of handlers out there like that .

I presume you mean doing obedience & agility being different, not agility & herding? Perhaps thinking for themselves is also a part of it as you said, I'm not sure, Im just repeating what I was told .

It's funny because when we went in the round yard last week the exercise we were to do was teach the dog sides, so right arm out & command & the dog moves the opposite direction ie left, then told to stop, then left arm out, dog moves to the right etc. Jarrah had never done it before & when I put my right arm out he automatically moved towards the right & the instructor immediately said "You've done obedience with this dog, havent you?". But I stopped him straight away when he moved right & told him no & then gave him another right arm signal & he moved left perfectly & proceeded to move in the correct direction & do all his stops about a dozen times in a row.

Who said dogs cant adapt?

Like I said, Im not sure Im ready to put his obedience on hold right now, he's so close to going in the ring for CCD & CD, I was hoping to put him in the state & national titles in June if I can get his sit stay sorted out, might put it on hold after that .

[sidoney]

My dogs learn a variety of tricks including free shaping which many people say stuffs up your obedience and agility (coz you are asking the dog to think for itself and be 'creative') - there is definately no confusion there.

IMO "many people" haven't learned the importance of putting shaped behaviours on cue. It's easy to get a dog offering behaviours. It takes repetition and time to get them properly on cue, so they appear when the cue is given and not otherwise.

I'd rather do at least the foundations of the different things I planned to do, so that the dog doesn't get too fixed in one "slot". Before agility was really around much, I competed in obedience with one of my dogs. It was harder then for her to learn to work away from me in agility. The younger one got a bit of each and didn't have the issues in changing from one to the other.

Mrs D dogs are very strongly contextual creatures. That's why you have to proof, proof, proof in different environments, because a behaviour known in one environment is not automatically generalised.

I'd suggest you don't do obedience exercises near sheep!

If you can have a cue for the dog, "sheep work" or "obedience work", he'll work it out. In fact the more practice he has the better he'll get at working it out. Do you do dry sheepwork at all? Away from the sheep? Or is it all on sheep? If it's all on sheep, then the sheep themselves make the cue. Otherwise you could do something like have an obedience outfit and a sheepherding outfit, or something like that.

Edited May 3, 2007 by sidoney

[jesomil]

With my Rotty, i did obedience, agility, tracking, flyball and protection work with no problems at all. She knew the difference and loved all of them. All these sports have a high dependence on the handler and the dog requires no instincts to participate in them.

With my Kelpie, i am undecided as to whether starting obedience with him is counterproductive to stockwork. I am thinking that it may be. I bought him solely to do yard trials, so obedience would be on the side.

For 2 years, all he has done is train in stockwork. He is brilliant and i dont want to mess with what we have got there. He has very strong instinct and works away from me and makes his own decisions when required.

Obedience requires him to focus on me and work very close to me. Basically everything that i dont want him to do otherwise. I have just started to do obedience with him a couple of months ago. I am not sure whether or not to continue because i dont want to train him to have that high dependance on me because with sheep work, he works independantly and makes alot of decisions himself.

Eg, when working sheep, he is constantly watching for movement and moving in response to that. With obedience i am training him to ignore movement and only watch me. It is working against his natural instinct.

Sorry, i am babbling a bit but i am still trying to work it out in my own mind.

So basically, i believe that you can easily do obedience, agility, showing etc etc etc with a dog with no probs but when you start dealing with sports requiring strong instincts, it could be a problem.

Most people probably seriously do obedience etc and then dabble in a bit of herding. In that situation there is no probs as they are only dabbling and having a bit of fun.

[Arya]

Okay, I can't speak about herding at all but I do ALL the obedience levels from Novice to UD and tricks and some agility too. Basically, my theory is do anything and everything if you train a heck of a lot, as boredom on the dog's behalf is the big de-motivator. In saying this, there are definitely time constraints. I guess imho, with the exception of herding which I know nothing about, it's just how much time you put in. The more the merrier as it's all obedience. I don't find it confuses dogs. On the other hand, I was talking to a wonderful trainer recently who has the opposite view. He believes each level should be taught and nothing more until that level is passed, in Obedience. And he has got UDX so he should know. I just respectfully disagree with him though

[wheres my rock]

a lot of triallers go with the teach a level at a time but then a lot dont we teach stuff from all over then polish each level as we go much more fun i mean wat fun stuf do you get to teach in novice well at least now we have a retrieve lol but before i perfer to mix it up

[leopuppy04]

Okay, I can't speak about herding at all but I do ALL the obedience levels from Novice to UD and tricks and some agility too. Basically, my theory is do anything and everything if you train a heck of a lot, as boredom on the dog's behalf is the big de-motivator.

Actually its funny you mention this. If I say for example have been working pretty hard on obedience/agility and we take a break for 1-2 weeks and concentrate on the other (or even just do some tricks as opposed to the 'serious' stuff' I have found that Leo comes back with 'super' enthusiasm because of the break.....

so maybe teaching multiple things is beneficial - less chance for burnout.

[Cosmolo]

When Cosmo was a puppy, we were doing scent detection and obedience and her level of obedience at that stage definitely interfered as i couldn't get her frustrated or to work independently during scent work- she would sit and focus, i would ignore and she wouldn't go back to the target because she believed that if she looked at me for long enough she'd get the reward.

BUT, now, it seems to be very clear in her mind that the two things are different and its easy to get her frustrated or to work independently with scent detection despite her level of obedience being very high. I think it has to do with her understanding the totally different commands and body language and a higher level of drive than what she had when she was a pup.

[MrsD]

Mrs D dogs are very strongly contextual creatures. That's why you have to proof, proof, proof in different environments, because a behaviour known in one environment is not automatically generalised.

I'd suggest you don't do obedience exercises near sheep!

If you can have a cue for the dog, "sheep work" or "obedience work", he'll work it out. In fact the more practice he has the better he'll get at working it out. Do you do dry sheepwork at all? Away from the sheep? Or is it all on sheep? If it's all on sheep, then the sheep themselves make the cue. Otherwise you could do something like have an obedience outfit and a sheepherding outfit, or something like that.

Sidoney, sorry I missed this yesterday, yes so far all his work has been on sheep & as you said he gets his cue from that. Interestingly the instructor asked us to do the same exercise as I described up there but off sheep about an hour after we'd done it the first time & Jarrah didnt have a clue what I was asking of him & spent the whole time jumping up like a loon trying to lick my face , so you are absolutely correct, the context is very important.

As for the sheepherding outfit, maybe I could dress up as a fluffy lamb - that would truly be mutton dressed up as lamb .