Purely Positive Results

[wheres my rock]

i know if the time ever comes where i start thinking about a guide dog i will be training it myself as an assistance dog much more helpful and wil teach it to guide as well

I trust my own training more than anyone elses rofl

[MonElite]

Now that you mention it I know of one police dog about 12 - 13 yrs ago that while apprehending a criminal got stabbed several times and so did the handler, the dog put the crim in intensive care for 3 days. The fallout from that was the dog wouldn't leave the bite (or whatever the term is for that) they tried a prong collar and then an e collar the dog just went in harder. The dog was in danger of being thrown out of the force so the handler approached a positive trainer to teach his dog to leave, it worked and the dog remained in the force.

Are you able to provide more info on this?

I imagien they used the prong or ecollar as punishement for repeat bites? correct?

Id like to know what did they do after the correction was used and the dog released, what was their reward for the dog?. How was the reward delivered, actually what was the reward?

My theory - the dog liked the bite a lot, considered it very rewarding and bit repeatedly. Corrections made it release but whoever trained it didnt provide a high enough reward to counteract the rewards of biting. To me the trainers didnt own the rewards, the decoy owned the reward and it was the agitation sleave. Hence the dog learned to bite and loved it so much.

No correction would outweigh the reward, as the dog was probably very high drive and very strong nerves.

Are you able to confirm or abolish my theory?

[Kavik]

I saw a dog like that at protection - they had real problems with the release, and prong and ecollar didn't work. Their release command was their recall command. What DID work in the end was having another decoy and when the dog let go they were rewarded by a bite on the other decoy. They also changed their command.

[m-j]

To me the trainers didnt own the rewards, the decoy owned the reward and it was the agitation sleave. Hence the dog learned to bite and loved it so much.

No correction would outweigh the reward, as the dog was probably very high drive and very strong nerves.

I have no idea how the prong or the e collar were used.The dog was an operational dog when this incident happened and he was used to winning but he got hurt and that scared him, so next time he was really making sure he won. I didn't go into a great deal of detail with the positive trainer except that he did have strong nerves but his confidence had been shattered. She just helped him regain it. This lady is an expert on stress IMO. We were actually talking about stress and the effects that positive training can have on it at the time and she was using that incident as an example.

cheers

M-J

[Staff'n'Toller]

fear aggressive dogs though i'd have to say to me they are the most wrrying because they seem to fly more easily than a dog that just loves to assert himself and is very confident

I actually prefer fear aggressive dogs, the signs are generally much bigger, unless they have been stopped, and they only attack long enough to remedy the situation, if this dog feels he is unable to take the flight option, whereas a confident dog's signs are generally more subtle. They don't feel they need to take the flight option but if they need to attack it is generally "harder".... like they are saying "and let that be a lesson to you for ignoring my warning".

I also believe that all aggression is anxiety ( which to me is still fear, just at the lower end of the scale) based, with the possible exception of idiopathic and predatory aggression. With dogs that appear to have learned to enjoy aggressing, through success, their initial reason for reacting was anxiety and if it doesn't work for the dog like they think it should, they do get anxious again. One of the laws of learning if a dog that has learned another way to do something/deal with a situation, when under stress they will revert back to their initial learning. I'm guessing it is this law that makes the dog aggress if his critical distance is breached when changing his behaviour using positives or corrections.

cheers

M-J

Nice post m-j...very interesting to read.

Mel.

[Staranais]

With dogs that appear to have learned to enjoy aggressing, through success, their initial reason for reacting was anxiety and if it doesn't work for the dog like they think it should, they do get anxious again.

I too think it was an interesting post, but I don't know if I can agree with the idea that with dogs that have learned to enjoy aggressing, their initial reason for trying the aggressive behaviour was always anxiety (anxiety over the dog's personal safety, or loss of a resource, etc). I fully agree that this is probably most often the case, but can think of a couple of examples where it might not be.

For example, consider a confident young male dog just reaching full sexual maturity, who naturally starts to throw his weight around to see what he can get away with (I think we've all seen this happen!) If his stroppy behaviour is heavily rewarded at this stage, the chance of the dog being stroppy/aggressive in the future could increase. That would be an example of aggression that wasn't initially caused by anxiety. Or how about redirected aggression - if at some point an aroused dog is blocked from displaying predatory behaviour, and in his frustration he redirects onto a companion dog, he'll obtain a reinforcing stress release, and that could result in a dog that learns to deal with frustration by aggressing. Again, no real fear or anxiety involved, merely predatory frustration.

I'd also argue that even if the first aggressive incident in a dog's life was prompted by anxiety or stress, that doesn't mean that later aggression will necessarily be prompted by the dog feeling fear or anxiety. If the dog finds his initial aggressive behaviour to be rewarding (e.g excitement, adrenaline rush, endorphins), then that can lead to the dog actively seeking out occassions to fight even at times when it's not feeling at all anxious or threatened.

Just nitpicking.

[m-j]

Just nitpicking.

I wouldn't say nit picking just adding to the disscussion which has gone way OT (sorry LL)

For example, consider a confident young male dog just reaching full sexual maturity, who naturally starts to throw his weight around to see what he can get away with (I think we've all seen this happen!)

Yep I have one at the moment He uses body language first if that is ignored he aggresses. The reasons he loads up in the first place are varied, but is he anxious when aggressing I believe , as he has been ignored, which is not what he likes and it certainly works as the aggro is a very clear message, he gets his desired result. It was the same with my Karabash.

Or how about redirected aggression - if at some point an aroused dog is blocked from displaying predatory behaviour, and in his frustration he redirects onto a companion dog, he'll obtain a reinforcing stress release, and that could result in a dog that learns to deal with frustration by aggressing. Again, no real fear or anxiety involved, merely predatory frustration.

Is the dog still in drive when frustrated???? Prey drive is the quiet attack (stalk, chase pounce) My thoughts are frustration is a form of anxiety as they aren't able to satisfy that drive. I was at a friends shearing shed during shearing and there was 2 kelpies tied in the back of a ute one was going ballistic every now and then it was nipping it's mate, while watching another dog working in the yards. The mate eventually got sick of this and retaliated with a snap and a scuffle ensued. I believe when the scuffle ensued the dog wasn't in prey drive it had switched to defence as prey drive cannot be used in conjunction with any other drive and the dog's demenour had definately changed.

I'd also argue that even if the first aggressive incident in a dog's life was prompted by anxiety or stress, that doesn't mean that later aggression will necessarily be prompted by the dog feeling fear or anxiety. If the dog finds his initial aggressive behaviour to be rewarding (e.g excitement, adrenaline rush, endorphins), then that can lead to the dog actively seeking out occassions to fight even at times when it's not feeling at all anxious or threatened.

If the dog is feeling an adrenaline rush the dog is anxious, I would have thought, as these chemicals are the body's physiological response to anxiety/stress. I asked an old boss of mine Wed night did he get anxious before a fight even one he was fairly certain he could win, as he was a boxer in his younger day. After a lengthy disscussion and he told me he always was to a certain extent, he felt he needed to be to be prepared to go into the ring and give it his best shot, too much anxiety was bad as it wasted energy, not enough and he may have become complacent.

cheers

M-J