Purely Positive Results

[Arya]

But what if fighting (or the adrenaline rush from fighting) is the best motivator for a particular dog? It's not exactly something you can make the dog work for, it's something you never ever want the dog to do. And although in this situation you can teach and reward alternative behaviours until the cows come home, if you never reduce the value of the predatory/aggressive behaviour with some sort of aversive, then what's to stop the dog indulging in it whenever he has the opportunity? And as long as you're also constantly reinforcing correct behaviour, then what's so wrong with using a correction to show the dog that particular behaviours simply won't be tolerated? (I don't want to hijack this thread, so Leopuppy, please feel free to respond via PM instead of posting here in response. I have read & attempted to use the Click to Calm book, and am always interested in informed discussions about dog-dog aggression, since it's pretty much an ongoing challenge for us.)

You can use fight drive to make the dog work but it's tricky and unpredictable in a dog with the wrong temperament and unsuitable in a lot of cases. Amhalite, I agree that a cxn to shut the behaviour down in these situations is the fastest way to assert leadership and show the behaviour is unacceptable. Assert leadership - just like an Alpha dog would. But i wouldn't use it in training if a dog wasn't working well because of some other reason. Fighting is a total no-no and not on in my doggy rule book.

[Cosmolo]

To give some extra thought to the slightly off topic part of this thread- although i think its more than slightly OT!!

When dealing with behaviours where the dog is in drive, the chemical aspect of the dogs brain needs to be considered- the dog can and does receive a chemical reward in the brain- alpha waves and endorphins- so even if you do withold something, it doesn't matter as the dog has been rewarded. To give another example, i have a pet hate of extinction training for mouthing in puppies being used with working breeds like ACD's who are in drive when they're doing it- it doesn't matter if you ignore, the behaviour is self rewarding anyway. I have dealt with 3 adult ACDs in the last 6 months who all had serious issues, in part, as a result of ignoring mouthing as puppies.

To work with an aggression issues in a 'positive way' CAN be done BUT it needs an exceptional understanding of critical distance AND that critical distance must never be breached, only worked in gradually in controlled environments. That can be difficult for people who walk their dogs and don't control what others do.

I know of one trainer who is a 'positive trainer' who i would feel comfortable referring people to who have aggression issues. Funnily enough she is a trainer also in Perth who also has an excellent understanding of other methods/ techniques but through her knowledge base, chooses not to use them. She also acknowledges that appropriate corrections do work and that some dogs may require such methods. I have the utmost of respect for this trainer even though i use other methods, as she is well educated in all facets of training and what she does works. Just because i would do things differently doesn't mean that the thoughts of others are not valid.

[Staranais]

Leopuppy: Sometimes the adrenaline from fighting is the best motivator - that can also mean that a punisher can also not work. The dog couldn't care less lets say - in the worse case scenario - about the electric shock you give it simply because the behaviour it is producing is so rewarding to itself.

Yes, I've found that to be very true. In my limited experience, if you wait till a dog is in full "fight" drive (for want of a more accurate term), he will be so adrenalised that even a huge correction won't get his attention, let along disuade him from repeating his behaviour. When he's in that state, in my experience, neither punishment nor reward will do much to get his attention. To change the behaviour, you have to catch it way before it gets to that point.

Leopuppy: For me - and not having done this personally in action, but having watched others do it - I find that if you work at a distance where your dog won't react and reward accordingly (they are aware of the stimulus but not responding) - this will work far better than putting your dog in a situation where it may react albeit mildly and recieve a correction.

I tried something that sounds very similar for about six months at a clicker class - hanging around the outside of the class, keeping a good distance away from the other dogs, clicking good behaviour, gradually taking him closer to the other dogs, etc. This routine had an effect on my dog, but not the effect I wanted. I found that the end result was that when my dog knew he couldn't get to any of the other dogs, he'd stay calm and perform nicely to get his treats like I'd taught him. When he figured he could gain access to a dog he wanted to fight, he'd completely ignore me and the treat bag. For example, we had beautiful on-leash group stays at the end of our 6 foot leash, and completely untrustworthy off-leash ones at the same distance. It was a hump that we just couldn't seem to get over.

I've heard of this method working really well for other aggressive dogs, which is why I gave it a shot. And perhaps it would have worked for us if I had persevered for even longer, or tried it again with the help of an extremely experienced positive trainer. I can't say for sure that it wouldn't have. In any case, I didn't have access to such a trainer, and I didn't want it to be years until my dog was safe enough to walk in public, so I started experimenting with other methods and tools.

For us, after much experimentation, what I've found to work best is to try to keep my dog's attention in the first place with the promise of play rewards (I'm currently working my way through one of K9Force's distance learning programmes, trying to learn how to do this more effectively). My dog seems to get a similar rush from earning play rewards as he does from fighting, so the promise of a game is generally pretty effective in keeping his focus on me. On the other hand, if my dog ever does start to fixate on another dog, I've found it best to immediately correct his behaviour before he's fully adrenalised, in order to snap him out of his spaz. I can then ask him to do something else, and reward him with a toy for doing that. It seems to be working. A few months ago I was able to take him to a two day tracking/obedience seminar, and was able to work him offleash at a short distance from many strange dogs, keeping him focused and happy the entire time (yup, I was dead proud).

That's just what I've found to work best for us, though. I certainly wouldn't be confident enough to recommend this to anyone else, or to try it with any other dog. I'm no professional behaviourist, not by a long shot.

Cosmolo: When dealing with behaviours where the dog is in drive, the chemical aspect of the dogs brain needs to be considered- the dog can and does receive a chemical reward in the brain- alpha waves and endorphins- so even if you do withold something, it doesn't matter as the dog has been rewarded.

It took me ages to work this out for myself, I wish you'd been able to tell me this a few years back, Cosmolo!

When I first started taking my staffy to training classes, it took me simply ages to work out why his behaviour was getting worse around other dogs, when I was being really conscientious about not ever allowing him to fight and really consistent about clicking/treating his good behaviour. I eventually worked out that the very act of focusing on and firing up over other dogs seems to be rewarding to my dog, even if he doesn't actually get to engage them in combat. I think it's an adrenaline/endorphin thing, and it seems to be very addictive to him. I guess he'd been doing it for years before I adopted him.

But I agree that this is very OT - sorry Lablover for hijacking your interesting thread about positive training. I just love hearing about everyone else's thoughts on dog-dog aggression, since like I said, it's an ongoing problem for us, and there are so many experienced and learned dog people on this forum.

[Cosmolo]

Amhalite- when you were clicker training, did you find it difficult to control others breaching your dogs critical distance? What was your response to your dogs reactivity if critical distance was breached? (through no fault of your own)

[m-j]

You can use fight drive to make the dog work

How do you use defence drive to make a dog work? I ahve been told that dogs aren't really receptive to learning if feeling that way.

cheers

M-J

[Cosmolo]

You can use defence drive by teaching the dog that it will win/ achieve what it wants by its actions in that state of mind. You don't start with the dog in defence drive peak and some people will start when teaching a dog in prey drive and then switch to defence when the dog understands whats going on. It is uncomfortable for the dog to begin with but they can learn to enjoy it.

[jesomil]

I am all for positive training, but i have never seen it successful with a few different behaviour problems, one being aggression.

I have seen aggression that has been fixed to a high level of stability when the dog has firstly been taught to walk on lead properly and then a correction given at even the tiniest sign of alertness to another dog. I have seen this work wonders.

I have also wondered why guide dogs and police dogs arent positively trained if it were possible.

[Cosmolo]

Positive training to a high level is possible- but you must control the environment and the dogs life- as mentioned with the critical distance when dealing with aggression. Service dogs are trained with aversives because they MUST cope with distractions with a high level of reliability as human life is at stake. They also can't control everything in the environment around the dog when they are working so i believe that aversives are necesary in that situation. One organisation did try purely positive training with dogs for the blind and too many dogs became 'rejects' from the system or were somewhat unreliable in certain areas.

Generally speaking (depending on the dog) i use some form of correction when dealing with aggression and have used the method described by jesomil with a great degree of success on many dogs.

Edited May 4, 2007 by Cosmolo

[kelpiechick]

I have seen Suzanne Clothier use positive methods with an aggressive (dog aggressive) dog at a seminar a few years back with amazing results. I have also used positive methods with one of my older dogs who has issues with fear aggression, also with good results BUT aggression is such a complex issue (so many types/manifesting itself in so many different ways) that I would never suggest that this is the method that should be used. It just happens to be the method that worked with my dog. (Just as other methods have obviously worked with other dogs)

I don't think there is a 'one size fits all' way to train or to address issues. A good trainer will have different approaches for different dogs IMHO.

And to get back to the original thread (Think this was the original thread about titles with positive training? ) - current trialling dog / ADX JDX GD HIT (one more for SPD) Clicker trained with no corrections ever, also don't use NRM's.

[m-j]

I have also wondered why guide dogs and police dogs arent positively trained if it were possible.

Now that you mention it I know of one police dog about 12 - 13 yrs ago that while apprehending a criminal got stabbed several times and so did the handler, the dog put the crim in intensive care for 3 days. The fallout from that was the dog wouldn't leave the bite (or whatever the term is for that) they tried a prong collar and then an e collar the dog just went in harder. The dog was in danger of being thrown out of the force so the handler approached a positive trainer to teach his dog to leave, it worked and the dog remained in the force.

cheers

M-J

[wheres my rock]

tradition often overides what is best even in the forces

you can get high reliability using just positive in other countries service dogs are trained by many orgs using positives over traditional methods

I know ive watched guide dogs in action and havent been that impressed i know my friend has one and it take a correction to get it to drop and when its here it trys to sniff around even wehn its been told to lie down ive also seen one guide dog sniffing crotches at the lights instead of paying attention many of the guide dogs i see seemt o just zone out in boredom of the work which is a shame when i compare to many of the assistance dogs trianed with positives that love to owrk ad seem so connected to their handlers

[Staranais]

Amhalite- when you were clicker training, did you find it difficult to control others breaching your dogs critical distance? What was your response to your dogs reactivity if critical distance was breached? (through no fault of your own)

When I was trying to clicker train the aggression, I was hanging round classes where the other dogs were mainly being worked on leash. Since the other dogs were on leash, it wasn't too hard for us to stay at a distance where my dog was happy to focus on me and work for food treats. On the occasions when another dog did get too close, and I noticed my boy start to stare or tense up, I'd walk him away in the opposite direction and try to refocus him on the treats (as encouraged by the instructors of the class).

At other times (e.g walking on the streets) it was harder to keep outside critical distance from other dogs, and we often had to cross the road or run in the other direction to avoid getting too near to strange dogs. To totally avoid the possibility of another dog breaching his critical distance in the months when we were trying the clicker retraining, I guess I would have had to stop taking him out walking, but that just doesn't seem like it would have been practical or fair to him.

Can I ask why you asked?

[wheres my rock]

You say that now you taight focus using a toy reward well that could have been done anyway the first thing we teach in class reagrdless of whether the person is using clicker or something else is focus and that focus is the foundation of all other work

[Staranais]

Yes, I moved onto trying the toy after leaving the clicker class. They discouraged using toys since apparently they were harder to use, and disrupted the class. But the toy seems to keep his attention better around other dogs, though he's by no means perfect yet. I use it with a verbal bridge, not a clicker, but same idea. Plus corrections for ever starting to focus aggressively on another dog, though that's not very often these days. Still can't trust him to interact with strange dogs, I've accepted I probably won't ever be able to, but he's much much better at ignoring them on request.

[wheres my rock]

so really the class let you down sounds like it was a purist class lol.

verbal bridge clicker all the same i get old im not really a clicker trianer because i use a verbal brindge and toys and whatever else that works.

I argue that i prefer a vebal brindge and of course get told yes but its not as efffective and your voice is slower yet wehn we tested it my verbal was faster than the clicker everytime i just hate have too many gadgets.

sounds liek youve doen an amazing job by first dog was majorly aggressive he could do stays at a trial and even if another dog stood over him he would come to find me it took a long time to get there but no way would i ever assume he was cured like you i accepted that he could fire up not that he did but its always soemthing that sits in the back of your mind dogs are dogs even the nicest ones can be pushed to far..

i think youve done a great job with you dog and shoul be very proud

[Staranais]

Thanks.

by first dog was majorly aggressive he could do stays at a trial and even if another dog stood over him he would come to find me it took a long time to get there but no way would i ever assume he was cured.

That's the point I'd like to be at with my dog.

I sort of gave up the idea that my dog could be totally "cured" the first time I read the 3rd Steven Lindsay book. In the section on intra-specific aggression, he describes a type of dog that, though genetics or learning, actually finds fighting inherently rewarding. I kept reading that section going "Hey! I'm not crazy! This exactly describes my dog!"

[wheres my rock]

no your not crazy some dogs just love the adrenline rus i guess just like soem epople find jumping out of a perfectly good plane fun the wrold is a strange place

I think you'll get there and even if you dont think of how much you have learned in the process my first dog the agro one taught me more about dogs than the rest put together lol.

I like lindsay we are fortunate to have his books at the library so i didnt have to buy them but i borrow them often and i think looking at my pile of notes have pretty much wrtten the whole things out anyway lol

[Staranais]

Yeah, the public library wouldn't get them for me, but then I found them at a university library. Great great books, though pretty heavy reading.

No question that my problem dog has taught me heaps about dog behaviour and training. And I do believe we'll get there in the end. We started tracking last year, and we've just started obedience training this year, and I figure when we finally get his CD title (or his UD, if that's easier for us) then I'll be content with how far we've come (or at the least, I'll be able to brag about him to the people who told me I should PTS).

Was your aggressive dog fearful? I can imagine positive-only methods working really well for a fear aggressive dog, since the dog presumably wouldn't really want to be fighting in the first place, and would be eager to learn some other method of resolving stressful dog-dog situations?

[wheres my rock]

nah he was a shit when we got him he'd lived out on the streets for a while and he loved to pick a fight little sodder he was and he'd never forget if a dog picked on our bitch he'd get them sooner or later he'd just wait for an oppurtunity

He was a great dog used to like climbing on the roof of the house and survey te street. Wehn i got him i was told i was mad that he was nuts and to keep him was putting people in danger i had one person show how to string him up that was the only erson he ever tried to bite then and there i knew there was noway i cld do that i wasnt strong enough and i didnt see how it would work so with the choice of putting him down or fixing him with little help we headed to the library

wit the help of some amazing triners he went on to trial in ud and gain his agility dog title that was before all the new classes came about. He became a clown loved to work and once he had a job he seemed to poor all his energy into that rather than hating the world.

I agree on fear aggression a lot of fear ggression goes back t being a good leader as well if your dog trusts you to do whats best it does make a huge difference i avet had much to do with fear aggressive dogs though i'd have to say to me they are the most wrrying because they seem to fly more easily than a dog that just loves to assert himself and is very confident

[m-j]

one guide dog sniffing crotches at the lights instead of paying attention

LOL

Pinching food is one thing I've seen 1 guide dog do, the dog was working and as he walked past a kid who was eating something he swiped it, mum quickly pacified child by promising another and the handler seemed unaware of what had just happened. Another dog was actually lying under a chair in front of me a karate comp (I had been there for about 15 mins) and his handler came along and started reprimanding the dog by checking it about a 7-8 times and as he was doing this the dog's head was hitting the side of a chair. I nearly bit my tounge off, how the dog was supposed to form an association to something that they assumed (as they didn't actually see the dog take the sausage roll it was just missing) the dog had done at least 16mins earlier is a bit of a mystery to me.....but I'm not a guide dog trainer or handler, so really can't comment but it flies in the face of my understanding of timing of corrections.

fear aggressive dogs though i'd have to say to me they are the most wrrying because they seem to fly more easily than a dog that just loves to assert himself and is very confident

I actually prefer fear aggressive dogs, the signs are generally much bigger, unless they have been stopped, and they only attack long enough to remedy the situation, if this dog feels he is unable to take the flight option, whereas a confident dog's signs are generally more subtle. They don't feel they need to take the flight option but if they need to attack it is generally "harder".... like they are saying "and let that be a lesson to you for ignoring my warning".

I also believe that all aggression is anxiety ( which to me is still fear, just at the lower end of the scale) based, with the possible exception of idiopathic and predatory aggression. With dogs that appear to have learned to enjoy aggressing, through success, their initial reason for reacting was anxiety and if it doesn't work for the dog like they think it should, they do get anxious again. One of the laws of learning if a dog that has learned another way to do something/deal with a situation, when under stress they will revert back to their initial learning. I'm guessing it is this law that makes the dog aggress if his critical distance is breached when changing his behaviour using positives or corrections.

just like soem epople find jumping out of a perfectly good plane fun the wrold is a strange place

I with you on this one I am definately not an adrenaline junkie.

cheers

M-J