Purely Positive Results

[Staff'n'Toller]

obedience isnt a drag unless you make it one and not just working dogs enjoy it actually conor is my first working dog breed

Isnt it amazing how we keep coming back to teh same old argumanet with the same old epople on purely positive

no physical correction and the only verbal on is a NRM no yelling no etc

cant think what else but i think that gives you an idea with out getting nit picky and trying to find an argument

In all the books and articles I've read, a NRM isn't classified as purely positive.

Edited May 1, 2007 by Staff'n'Toller

[wheres my rock]

i know but a lot of people i know use it and im willing to still call them pp because its the only thing they do use that doesnt really fit

[Staff'n'Toller]

Hehehe ok.

[wheres my rock]

i hate labbelling epople im not classed as a purist clicker trainer by many because i mainly use a verbal marker among other thigs and then the traddies just think im weird so i try not to put poeple in pocketcs but yes you can train a dog to highl levels without force

[Staff'n'Toller]

Stella we have talked (albeit briefly) and I think we have very similar philosophies. Just wanted to clarify coz I do use NRM's sometimes.

Lablover has asked for titles as a definition, so I don't want to go OT but I think a successful purely positive trainer means one that has a well behaved dog in all facets of (the dog's) life, and not just in the trial ring.....you can have a purely positive trained trial dog who has horrid manners at home- demanding attention, rushing at people or other dogs, not recalling from distraction, not being able to LLW in free etc etc and that sort of thing doesn't cut it with me.

Anyways, a whole other topic...

Mel.

Edited May 1, 2007 by Staff'n'Toller

[wheres my rock]

yup its always hard with the titls thing but its all we have of course the cgc could be considered a title too

[Rom]

What about verbal corrections?

I'm guessing that to some dogs this would be +P?

ETA: What does NRM stand for?

Edited May 1, 2007 by Rom

[squeak]

NRM = No reward marker

[ness]

I think it depends a bit on how exactly use use a NRM. It also depends on the response of the dog to it. My thoughts are if you have to give a NRM then the dog is confused and you need to split whatever you are teaching down further into smaller increments so the dog is successful.

[whatevah]

Moses has CCD and CD, numerous tricks, been a member of Pal Superdogs, appeared in an add. There are tricks he can do that very few other dogs can do. Moses also has his AFCh in flyball. Josh also has AFCh. I use NRM with Moses all the time. He is a great anticipator, and often during some training when learning something new, he may think he has it and go off onto a different tangent and I simply say in a normal voice "nuh", which means try again. For him this means he didn't get it right but to try something different. He copes well with this. I don't think titles are everything. Moses can also do a lot of assistance dog tasks. There are other things that we haven't competed in, such as tracking, which Josh loves. I did one retreiving trial with Josh. Josh loves to retrieve. Soon Tia and I are doing the herding instinct test.

[wheres my rock]

I love the way as soon s we start talkign about not correcting everyone tries to pick it to pieces oh but this could be +punishment this doesnt fit any experienced trainer which most of you are know exactly what we mean when we talk about pure positive trianing we dont jerk our dogs drag our dogs force our dogs yell at our dogs in other words we dont reprimand incrrect we set up for success reward correct behaviour and have a whole lot of fun in the process well thast my definition of a pp trianer

I cant think how else to explain it but youve read the books seen epople trinaing i think you know what we mean throwing around tonnes of terminology isnt doing anything but trying to look smart

so how many people have gained titles with the above philosophy

[wheres my rock]

i agree ness if you find you are using an nrm then you need to look at why but i dont have a problem with it its a good comunication tool its not nasty and can come in handy with fast thinkers sometimes

I would prefer to break t down and look at why i was getting the wrong response coz i know it will be somenthing the handler is doing

[ness]

Me me me - wheres my rock .

[leopuppy04]

I think there needs to be a bit of clarification on 'purely positive'.

I consider myself a 'positive' trainer - as to whether I am purely positive or not, I cannot say.... I think that varies a lot on definition.

I don't punish (physical or verbal) the dog during training. Manners are another story. I will punish (verbal) if my dog jumps on the bench, is about to run onto the road and into oncoming traffic.... I will verbally reprimand if they do something that I deem as unacceptable and possibly detrimental to their welfare....

I will never 'punish' the dog if they don't sit/drop on command, but I will withold the reward (howz that Erny?! )

I can't claim on titles as I've been trialling for under 12mths.

I have gained Leo's CCD - 5 passes in 7 trials (lol - I had entered 3 in a row, got the title in the first of the three and then still continued in the other two). Each pass that we gained our score was between 88-97 (out of 100) and we always placed (1st - 3rd). I have recieved some lovely comments about his heeling (still waiting on your feedback Ness!!!)

I have gained one pass to Leo's JD - but have only entered 2 agility trials - started trialling in March this year.

We have gained our HIC even though it isn't a 'title'.

We have learnt numerous tricks including some complex ones too.

The biggest punnisher my dog recieves has been a 'no' or 'uh - uh' for a NRM which works really well IMO.

I was taught initially that when my dog does the wrong thing to growl "AHHH" which I did, but have since stopped and feel that I have a better understanding and better relationship. My dog knows that he will not get punished if he makes a mistake, which is a huge plus as he is a naturally 'soft' dog and all of my trainers and I agree that should I have implemented 'correction' work i'd be fighting a loosing battle with him.

JMHO.

http://allcreatures3.tripod.com/leo.html

Feel free to click on the link - have a look at my pages and click on the links to watch the vids.

Edited May 1, 2007 by leopuppy04

[wheres my rock]

yes ness i know you your a great ambassador for the methods

lol there are quite a few nowdays gosh wehn we started we were the weird epopel that didnt have a clue because we wouldnt string a dog up lol

[wheres my rock]

i think you would qualify leo in my books anyway im pretty fair to growling if the dog jumped on the bench its what you would do then to stop it happening again that goes under trianing most peoples first reaction will be to yell that however is not trining thats reating to a situation if a child goes to run across a road your first instinct would be to yell stop but then what you teh the child road safety same with your dog if you had a bolter a dog that bots out the front into the road you may yell to stop the initial bolt but the you would go away and teach a stop teach door mnners be more aware and gain better control so it doesnt hapen again.

but you wouldt decide that to teach that sudden stop command or the door manners that you should use force because its a danger you would still teah what you want positively and save the punishement for yourself for allowing the dog to bolt lol

[leopuppy04]

i think you would qualify leo in my books anyway im pretty fair to growling if the dog jumped on the bench its what you would do then to stop it happening again that goes under trianing most peoples first reaction will be to yell that however is not trining thats reating to a situation

Exactly - If I find that I ever had to growl at my dog for something - ie: jumping on the bench (which they never have mind you ) I would consider it something I haven't trained - they got the 'evil green monster' for doing the unthinkable, but it was probably more of a reflex reaction. I'd then go back and spend time 'training' the correct behaviour - ie: putting some tasty meat on the bench - watch TV or something where I can see and C&T the dog every time they walk past and not interact...... I did the same when Kinta knicked some food off the floor - I growled at her, but then later came back and 'trained' the correct way - ie: if you leave that boring carrot, you are more likely to get some nice sausage from me

I just wanted to clarify what I do so that someone then doesn't say to me - 'but you said you never growl at your dogs'

[wheres my rock]

lol sad isnt it that we have to justify every little thing

I used to feel so un comfortable at trianing and trials because i was always being bailed up about how i trained people at our club used to love it if my dogs made amistake and would jump on me like gee give a girl a break its why i quit for a time

Now i dont care i just do what i do have a heap load of fun and ignore the criticisers i figure their just jealous rofl Does crack me up though when at club someones dog nicks of and comes to me owers growling dogs playing keepings of i call it it comes and then they say yeah but youve got food toy whatever i used to get its attention and i just smile and say wel whos the smart one then hehe Because we do a lot of food throwing running away and play in trining we oftn haveother peoples dgs visit us to join in i even got asked to train soemwhere else because i was too bigger distractio i pointed out that i was training a long way from the classes the classes were certificate top class and that if their dogs were that easily distracted at that level then they should probably go back a few classes and work on focus

Im a b$^$#h but hey im really careful not to do things that would distract most dogs and i'd never train that way in a class so to them

just kidding

[Cosmolo]

Seeing as its gone off topic- WMR, your not the only one who gets bailed up at training and criticised about the way that you train. I use elements of positive punishment and still get that so don't think that its just positive trainers who get 'bashed', because we do too- either for the way we use rewards and motivation or the way we use a correction- its not training technique specific.

[leopuppy04]

i know....

Yeah - what you say is true... the door swings both ways. There are many people that just for having a check chain on their dogs are told they are cruel.....

No matter which method we use, we'll always be criticised by someone!

I only get annoyed when fellow trainers who should know better ask me if I can please stop using my clicker as their dog is clicker trained and responding to mine..... hmph!

Edited May 2, 2007 by leopuppy04