When People Say Obedience

[B-Q]

buster has pretty good manners. i can leave my food on the floor next to him and he won't touch it. he jumps up but i allow him to and he doesn't do it to stranges. he barks at people when they first come to the house but i excpect that so i'm not fased as when introduced to them he accepts them

he is seriously lacking good social behaviour with dogs though

and i believe for a dog to be a good obedience dog, it should have good manners with both people and animals

[SwaY]

I can guess that majority of the people that want socially acceptable dogs, will have kids.

I dissagree - everybody wants 'socially acceptable' dogs as you would want to take your dog everywhere with you and for it to be a pleasure.

You also want it to be a pleasure for those who encounter your dogs in public.

I think many people forget that.

For me - the difference would be - social acceptance in people without kids may be different to those with kids (eg: allowing dogs to jump etc)

This will vary person to person kids or not.

[leopuppy04]

For the record i think ALL dogs should have social manners before anything else .

By social manners i mean, not jumping on people, not stealing food, not bullying young kids etc

Sociallly accetable dogs in my wording/eyes.

I agree that all dogs should have social manners - otherwise they are not a joy to have around and take everywhere.

Yet your let your dogs jump on people.

My dogs have a fairly lenient jumping policy - when I get all excited with them, they can jump (unfortunately this carries over to other people too )

Yes, they are permitted to jump on me and on others who ask for it (read my 2nd post - I did an edit)..... but if they were to jump on someone who didn't invite it they do get told off - that is unacceptable behaviour. I said it does carry over to other people but that doesn't mean that I allow it - but rather that they will TRY IT.

You also want it to be a pleasure for those who encounter your dogs in public.

I think many people forget that.

and they ARE. Not forgotten - it's done. But I will admit that because I do not rule jumping out as a complete no-no - it is ongoing training for us. They will jump on people - but as I said - the people that invite it - they don't ambush someone i'm just standing there and talking to

[wheres my rock]

put it on cue and train it under ditraction as in using other cues epople will use so they learn those are a no for jumping and have a cue that is unusual

many epople teach up with hands up on their chest yet where will a child stick their hands wehn a dog approaches and they are unsure

[SwaY]

Should the person being jumped on, have to tell you your dogs behaviour is not acceptable to them?

Who's responsability is it?

(im using jumping as thats what we are on now, but i mean any unacceptable behaioour)

[wheres my rock]

the biggest problem i have is a hubby that doesnt trian his dog and he just got the jumping up lecture and the diving for the toy lecture and the pulling one o boy does he get a lot of lectures lol

[leopuppy04]

Should the person being jumped on, have to tell you your dogs behaviour is not acceptable to them?

Who's responsability is it?

(im using jumping as thats what we are on now, but i mean any unacceptable behaioour)

No - they don't have to tell me - NO jumping is allowed unless invited by me. What I mean is that the person who gets jumped on 'asks' for it by 'inviting' the dog to jump up, or having the dog jump up and saying 'oh it doesn't matter' and continues to pat them with 2 feet on their chest. the dogs pick this up and after a few times of this, my two will then jump on these people before being asked. If they don't mind, neither do I.

Every now and then my dogs have slipped up and jumped on people without being asked and just coz they felt like it. I don't accept that and they were reprimanded for it - It seldom happens now.

WMR- it already is on cue - they don't jump/ shouldn't jump unless they hear 'hugs'.....

ETA - Sway - if their jumping is as bad as what I think you think it is - they wouldn't have been able to pass their therapy accreditation as the vet (who my dog loves) had to get the dog all riled up and 'encourage' them to jump on him. If they did- they would have failed. My dogs have worked out who allows them to jump and who doesn't...... simple as that

Edited May 1, 2007 by leopuppy04

[SwaY]

No - they don't have to tell me - NO jumping is allowed unless invited by me.

Thats what i was looking for

What I mean is that the person who gets jumped on 'asks' for it by 'inviting' the dog to jump up, or having the dog jump up and saying 'oh it doesn't matter' and continues to pat them with 2 feet on their chest.

I think example is invited behaviour, and would deem that ok.

the dogs pick this up and after a few times of this, my two will then jump on these people before being asked. If they don't mind, neither do I.

That i woudn't like unless i asked for it that particular time.

Thats offering behaviour, and hoping to get a reward. In that case i would say a pat like they did before.

Every now and then my dogs have slipped up and jumped on people without being asked and just coz they felt like it. I don't accept that and they were reprimanded for it - It seldom happens now.

Thats what i like to see

ETA - Sway - if their jumping is as bad as what I think you think it is - they wouldn't have been able to pass their therapy accreditation as the vet (who my dog loves) had to get the dog all riled up and 'encourage' them to jump on him. If they did- they would have failed. My dogs have worked out who allows them to jump and who doesn't...... simple as that

Oh no i don't know didly squat about your dogs.

Im using you as an example, no one else has repsonded to it.

It's not a personal thing, or a your dog thing. ;)

And for the record i '"hate" and don't use the word hate very often, dogs that jump on people when not asked, and owners who do not correct them ;)

[leopuppy04]

the dogs pick this up and after a few times of this, my two will then jump on these people before being asked. If they don't mind, neither do I.

That i woudn't like unless i asked for it that particular time.

Thats offering behaviour, and hoping to get a reward. In that case i would say a pat like they did before.

Would you still see it as offering behaviour if they constantly get rewarded for it despite me telling them to get 'off'? I find i'm wasting a command if the person is just going to keep encouraging it, so I end up 'giving up' lol.

One friend is a very annoying example - she has known Leo since he was a baby - came with me to pick him up. From day 1 has encouraged him to jump. He goes nuts when she comes over and she loves it - claims it means he loves her more than me ...... only lately - since she has a b/f and has been wearing 'nicer' clothes to our house - she doesn't want the dog to jump - how can you stop a dog that for 3 years has been permitted to jump on you whenever you go and see him - and even though you are talking to him in the same way and encouraging it....... coz if Leo doesn't go nuts then he must be sick

Kinta doesn't jump on her - result - she doesn't like Kinta.....

That is what I hate - people who 'make up their rules as they go along'. For example - my dogs probably never would jump on you or even attempt to, because you are consistent and would never 'invite' them to! LOL

Oh no i don't know didly squat about your dogs.

Im using you as an example, no one else has repsonded to it.

It's not a personal thing, or a your dog thing.

And for the record i '"hate" and don't use the word hate very often, dogs that jump on people when not asked, and owners who do not correct them ;)

good-o - just wanted to make sure that you didn't think my guys were raving lunatics coz they really are a pleasure to take out and my mum (who hates dogs) loves having them around as they are just 'so easy'.

Like you - I have pet hates in regards to dogs also - ones that push their way through to get a pat and push your other dogs out of the way - or lick and lick and lick..... lol - mine have attributes of that but when I say STOP they do ;)

Oooh - and the thing I deem worse than jumping up are when dogs stick their whole heads in your open treat pouch and scoff as much food as they can muster!!! LOL! Enough training at NDTF got me well and truley fed up with that ;)

Edited May 1, 2007 by leopuppy04

[Staranais]

I can guess that majority of the people that want socially acceptable dogs, will have kids.

Really? I've always got the impression that it was the other way around - I think sometimes busy parents simply don't have lots of time available to devote to socialising and training their dogs. In any case, I've met heaps of badly mannered dogs belonging to people that have kids or grandkids (including some really out of control, aggressive little terrors).

I guess you can't make a fair or accurate generalisation that dogs normally have better (or worse) manners if their owners have kids.

[SwaY]

Would you still see it as offering behaviour if they constantly get rewarded for it despite me telling them to get 'off'? I find i'm wasting a command if the person is just going to keep encouraging it, so I end up 'giving up' lol.

I'd tell the person off , and the dog off and shorten the lead and remove them from the impact zone ;)

So if they did jump, they couldn't make impact with the person.

One friend is a very annoying example - she has known Leo since he was a baby - came with me to pick him up. From day 1 has encouraged him to jump. He goes nuts when she comes over and she loves it - claims it means he loves her more than me ...... only lately - since she has a b/f and has been wearing 'nicer' clothes to our house - she doesn't want the dog to jump - how can you stop a dog that for 3 years has been permitted to jump on you whenever you go and see him - and even though you are talking to him in the same way and encouraging it....... coz if Leo doesn't go nuts then he must be sick

Kinta doesn't jump on her - result - she doesn't like Kinta.....

I would see that as wrong, and point it out to them. ;) Three years is not like, you let me do it 5min ago.

I would also try and and correct the dog into the new rules.

Harder i know, but many times rules have to be changed.

That is what I hate - people who 'make up their rules as they go along'. For example - my dogs probably never would jump on you or even attempt to, because you are consistent and would never 'invite' them to! LOL

Sometimes i invite it, but only if i know the dog and the owners are ok with it.

It's would be when i first see them for the day.

Like a rought up the head sort of thing, with the paws on my legs.

Then if offered again, i would put my knee up, or hand to stop them and they are told no.

By that stage SOME of there owners get the drift, others just seem clueless ;)

good-o - just wanted to make sure that you didn't think my guys were raving lunatics coz they really are a pleasure to take out and my mum (who hates dogs) loves having them around as they are just 'so easy'.

If they were that bad, i would see many threads on them

Like you - I have pet hates in regards to dogs also - ones that push their way through to get a pat and push your other dogs out of the way - or lick and lick and lick..... lol - mine have attributes of that but when I say STOP they do :p :D

Oh yes don't like them either.

I find alot of the behviours dogs offer or do, can be controlled by the owner.

Sway likes to jump on people.

She is corrected, told no, and then her lead is shortened so she can't do it.

She is also pulled back from the conversation, so she is more behind me, and not beside me.

I get embarrassed when she does it, and I don't catch her in time and she does actually jump on the person I feel terrible.

I apologies, correct her, shorten her lead and remove her from the conversation.

If at home is crated (laundry), at a show is crated or we move on.

[SwaY]

I can guess that majority of the people that want socially acceptable dogs, will have kids.

Really? I've always got the impression that it was the other way around - I think sometimes busy parents simply don't have lots of time available to devote to socialising and training their dogs. In any case, I've met heaps of badly mannered dogs belonging to people that have kids or grandkids (including some really out of control, aggressive little terrors).

I guess you can't make a fair or accurate generalisation that dogs normally have better (or worse) manners if their owners have kids.

I find most parents with dogs, know what impact their (dog or kid) has on other people, they seem to be more intune with personal space, respect of the other person and more fine tunned with manners.

Of course there is always the exception to the rule

[Flames_Daddy]

If someone said to you they do Obedience what do you think?

What is Obedience to you?

Do you think some Obedience people, fail to train there dog social manners, as there is no test for it?

The term OBEDIENCE means different things to different people, that's for sure.

For me, Obedience is about the dog understanding it is not the alpha entity in the household, and must be a good canine citizen at home and in the wider community.

Conversely, what IT IS NOT is isolating the animal and brainwashing it into some kind of sick servitude, where it thinks that all fun and rewards come from one particular bozo who is compensating for lack of control of their own human lives. I don't tolerate this attidude with human beings, and I certainly don't with defenseless animals.

Bottom line, there is a "deal" between man and canine that goes back in History. We look after them, and they look after us. The moment you slip up in your part of the bargain, there will be consequences one way on another. This is how NATURE works - and by the way, it works just fine without human interference.

Good on you SwaY, great thread!!

;)

[huski]

When I hear the word obedience I think of going to club and I think of general doggy manners.

The next dog I buy I would love to be a breed that excels at obedience, so I can attempt trials etc as I really enjoy doing basic stuff with my current dogs and would love a dog I could take to the next level.

However obedience for me means general manners and being good social doggy citizens I have basic "pet" obedience things I teach my dogs, like not jumping up on people, basic commands, TOT etc. What really annoys me is when people who have pet dogs feel that is an excuse for them to not be trained... I think all dogs should at least have good manners. Not teaching your dog basic obedience is lazy IMO.

[leopuppy04]

One friend is a very annoying example - she has known Leo since he was a baby - came with me to pick him up. From day 1 has encouraged him to jump. He goes nuts when she comes over and she loves it - claims it means he loves her more than me ...... only lately - since she has a b/f and has been wearing 'nicer' clothes to our house - she doesn't want the dog to jump - how can you stop a dog that for 3 years has been permitted to jump on you whenever you go and see him - and even though you are talking to him in the same way and encouraging it....... coz if Leo doesn't go nuts then he must be sick

Kinta doesn't jump on her - result - she doesn't like Kinta.....

I would see that as wrong, and point it out to them. ;) Three years is not like, you let me do it 5min ago.

I would also try and and correct the dog into the new rules.

Harder i know, but many times rules have to be changed.

Which makes this person all the more frustrating because she did the same uni course as me and therefore knows 'everything' - so even if I point it out she won't listen..... even if I tell her not to - she knows better.... LOL - Same person who tells me my dogs are not fed enough because they are 'so skinny'.... same person who will feed her dog 3 meals because he didn't eat the first one.... trust me - I love her to bits, but I can't agree on her dog training methods and no matter what I tell her she won't listen ;)

[SwaY]

Which makes this person all the more frustrating because she did the same uni course as me and therefore knows 'everything' - so even if I point it out she won't listen..... even if I tell her not to - she knows better.... LOL - Same person who tells me my dogs are not fed enough because they are 'so skinny'.... same person who will feed her dog 3 meals because he didn't eat the first one.... trust me - I love her to bits, but I can't agree on her dog training methods and no matter what I tell her she won't listen ;)

That is so funny, not everything can be learnt at uni, it's been proven time and time again.

But i get your point with your friend, give her a kick up the arse from me