Age For Obedience

[MrsD]

I'm also in Brisbane and will be looking for an obedience club in the near future - any chance you could forward me the list of recommended obedience schools off list too? (I don't know how to mail someone off list yet - sorry!)

I'm especially interested as I see you have a Sheltie, which is what i'm looking at getting.

Hi Tali, where about in Brisbane are you?

Southwest Brissy - Centenary suburbs area.

have sent you a PM Tali - click on the link at top right of your screen that says "new messages" to read it .

[Asalei]

Well I went home on Friday night and talked it over with the OH and we really feel that we shouldn't be going back. The puppies aren't going to learn and the guy is too forceful for our liking.

Unfortunately OH doesn't want to ring up and request the money back. I told him to do it as he may be oen of these people who has no respect for women and will listen to a male. But he doesn't want to. *I* don't want to either, but I don't just want to walk away from $250 that we are entitled to.

So, today around lunch, or this afternoon, I'm going to try and grow some balls and not let him talk me into returning like he did the other day. I'm going to say that we've talked it over and we think it would be best for us and the puppies if we give it a miss at this point in time and request a refund for the time we haven't used.

We've tried to do the training with the girls and they just don't seem to be picking it up with voice commands. At the moment, the only command they'll do by voice is sit. Sometimes they'll even drop when asked to sit (though they aren't rewarded for that, becuase that's not what we asked).

Wish me luck! Hopefully wednesday night we'll see you MrsD

[Luke GSP]

Well I went home on Friday night and talked it over with the OH and we really feel that we shouldn't be going back. The puppies aren't going to learn and the guy is too forceful for our liking.

Unfortunately OH doesn't want to ring up and request the money back. I told him to do it as he may be oen of these people who has no respect for women and will listen to a male. But he doesn't want to. *I* don't want to either, but I don't just want to walk away from $250 that we are entitled to.

So, today around lunch, or this afternoon, I'm going to try and grow some balls and not let him talk me into returning like he did the other day. I'm going to say that we've talked it over and we think it would be best for us and the puppies if we give it a miss at this point in time and request a refund for the time we haven't used.

Are you talking to the instructor or the owner of the business or are they one and the same? Unfortunately Erin you are probably trying to be too nice about the whole thing and hoping that the guy will read the situation and offer a refund, which he is obviously trying to avoid. IMHO in any situation like this you are best of writing down the aim of your conversation on a piece of paper at the side of the phone and everytime you feel yourself being talked out of it look at your bit of paper an remind yourself of your aim.

I think that you will have to take a very direct line with this guy and open the conversation with a very direct but non confrontational line such as." My OH and I have discussed the training over the past week and we feel that the style of training that you are offering just does not suit us. Obvioiusly this is not a reflection on your business,school,classes it just doesn't feel comfortable for us so we are really in a position where we would like you to tell us how we could get a refund." Probably best to write this down as well if you think that you might get flustered. from this point on just keep repeating " as I said this is not a reflection on your business,school,classes it just doesn't feel comfortable for us so we would like you to tell us how we could get a refund." I am sure that he will try to talk/sell/bully you around to attending the lessons but if you keep on track with your complaint he will have to give you some form of refund.

We've tried to do the training with the girls and they just don't seem to be picking it up with voice commands. At the moment, the only command they'll do by voice is sit. Sometimes they'll even drop when asked to sit (though they aren't rewarded for that, becuase that's not what we asked).

Have you read Steve K9's triangle of temptation lesson? this is a great way to get your dogs to notice that you are the one to listen to.

Wish me luck! Hopefully wednesday night we'll see you MrsD

[huski]

Well I went home on Friday night and talked it over with the OH and we really feel that we shouldn't be going back. The puppies aren't going to learn and the guy is too forceful for our liking.

Unfortunately OH doesn't want to ring up and request the money back. I told him to do it as he may be oen of these people who has no respect for women and will listen to a male. But he doesn't want to. *I* don't want to either, but I don't just want to walk away from $250 that we are entitled to.

So, today around lunch, or this afternoon, I'm going to try and grow some balls and not let him talk me into returning like he did the other day. I'm going to say that we've talked it over and we think it would be best for us and the puppies if we give it a miss at this point in time and request a refund for the time we haven't used.

We've tried to do the training with the girls and they just don't seem to be picking it up with voice commands. At the moment, the only command they'll do by voice is sit. Sometimes they'll even drop when asked to sit (though they aren't rewarded for that, becuase that's not what we asked).

Wish me luck! Hopefully wednesday night we'll see you MrsD

Good luck talking to the trainer Erin, I would be scared too

Glad to hear you have a found a new obed club too

[Asalei]

Thanks Luke, I didn't really know how to approach. And the way I see it is he can't refuse a refund as we haven't signed or seen any type of paperwork that states no refunds.

I know I have to forceful, but it's just not in my nature, I'll try my hardest though!

[Luke GSP]

Thanks Luke, I didn't really know how to approach. And the way I see it is he can't refuse a refund as we haven't signed or seen any type of paperwork that states no refunds.

You are 100% in the right, you did not sign anything and so you are entitled to a refund.

I know I have to forceful, but it's just not in my nature, I'll try my hardest though!

As I say, I find any negotiation is improved by having your case clearly set out either in your head or written down. In neurolinguistics they also encourage mental rehersals of the conversation so that you have a plan/response ready for any of there responses whether positive or negative. You will find that if you mentally rehearse the conversation and write down your points so that all you have to do is read them you will come across as very focused and sure of what you want.

Best of luck

[Tali]

Good luck this arvo Erin - will be thinking of you as I would feel threatened in this situation - but I do think you are doing the right thing - you can't learn when you feel the way you do, and a big part of obedience work is teaching the owner (from my memory of it anyway!).

Thanks also for sharing - your email is really timely for me and has shown me the importance of doing what Mrs D suggested in an off line email - visit the doggy schools first and see if they are suitable to me. What some people love, others will hate - but I wouldn't have thought along these lines if you hadn't shared your story. Thanks heaps and good luck again!

[MrsD]

Even if you don't get your money back I hope to see you down at the club sometime in the future Erin.

Good luck with the phone call, let us know how it goes .

[Asalei]

Well, I came home and phoned him all confident. He advised that they don't give refunds or anything.

So, we either attend and use the training for good and take out what we want... or we loose the whole $320 we paid.

I told him that the training seemed a bit too full on for us and we didn't want that high level of obedience for our dogs.. We just wanted them to walk beside us nicely and stay when seated.

We have decided to go tomorrow night, see how they go... if they have improved a little and the class is shortened (he promised me they would be shorter), we mose well just stay and get out of it what we can.

He told me that if we chose a life of treat rewarding, we'd be stuck when they go to the point of refusing a treat and wouldn't listen to our commands.

Edited April 30, 2007 by ~Erin~

[Mystiqview]

Yep. Confirmed which club it is..

They have not changed their training methods in 20 years or more.

When moving to Southside of Bris.. Wanted another night training ground.. They wanted me to pay the $320 to do a basic course for a dog who trials in Open obedience.

Went down there one night.. Saw one of the instructors fit a check chain to a husky pup.... and then they tightened it... Dog ended up full on biting him.. (husky not completely to blame here.. bad mannered, not aggressive)...

I will not tell more...but first aid had to be given. Wounds cleaned and bandaged.

ETA: if treat rewarding is not done properly and the dog never has to earn those treats.. then yes.. it is possible that you always have to treat reward. Otherwise.. no.. they do not become totally dependant on it.. The one, two, three, yank method does not work either. Why dont you just take out a dogs brain and put in a robot brain... that will work..

Edited April 30, 2007 by Mystiqviewbcs

[Kavik]

Considering that most clubs and individuals who trial their dogs use food and toys to train their dogs, I would say that this guy does not know everything about utilising these tools . . .

Like all tools they can be misused, but used correctly they make for an enthusiastic working dog and a great way to help overcome distractions. If you don't plan to trial, even not properly phasing out the use of food will not cause a problem.

[MrsD]

Erin, did you sign any paperwork when you joined up? You know the sort of thing like your name & address, dogs name/age etc? And did he give you a receipt for the money?

I'd be inclined to call Consumer Affairs & see what they have to say, cos Im pretty sure you are entitled to some money back .

[Tali]

Hi Erin

I hope you can get some good out of it - or follow MrsD's advice and see if you can obtain a refund. Failing that though, use the rewards at home when you train, and just don't take them to the doggy class. I used food as a reward (tiny bits of torn up commercial dog treat or dry doggy biscuits) when I trained Jarrah - at first I used them every time he did the right thing, and then only intermittently (really standard psychological conditioning - that's what the pokies work on with people!), and once a skill was cemented, it was there, food or not. Even 10 years later, he walked on lead beautifully, waited to be given the OK to eat his tea, and dropped/sat on verbal command. He lost some of the other skills through lack of use, but kept the basics which seem to be what you are mainly interested in. So do feel comfortable to be your own boss - don't engage in disputes with the instructor if they will upset you (probably more than they'll upset a bully like him) - but don't let him take charge of your dogs and your happiness; that's yours not his!

Hope you find tomorrow night more successful

Tali

[DagBoy]

As far as I can see, you have paid money in exchange for a service. The service you expected was suitable training for your dog. You have obviously not received suitable training, so they should give you your money back.

I do not claim to be an expert, or even particularly experienced, but as far as I can see, if they are trying to make your puppy work for over an hour, then they do not know as much about training as they might like to think, which makes them either ignorant or arrogant (or possibly both).

If you are still unhappy with how they are handling your concerns, tell them. Tell them you want a refund and if they say they have a no refunds policy ask them where that was stated on any contract you signed with them. Don't let them bully you - be firm.

Cheers,

DagBoy

[Asalei]

Yep. Confirmed which club it is..

They have not changed their training methods in 20 years or more.

He actually made reference to being in the industry for 20 years and knows his stuff on how to train dogs.. I'm not saying this is any way other than being observant the other night, but there were mainly GSD and Labs there... Maybe this is his area of expertise? :S Who knows..

I wonder if those 20 years if they've ever trained a beagle? ... I have a feeling we are just going to have to walk away...

Considering that most clubs and individuals who trial their dogs use food and toys to train their dogs, I would say that this guy does not know everything about utilising these tools . . .

Like all tools they can be misused, but used correctly they make for an enthusiastic working dog and a great way to help overcome distractions. If you don't plan to trial, even not properly phasing out the use of food will not cause a problem.

That's right, we were taught this at puppy school, using treats is a great way to teach a dog to do something, but you need to not let them rely on it. To teach them what we have, we used to give it to them everytime they did it in the beginning.. now if we ask them to do something, they are lucky if they get a treat every 5th or 6th time. IF we are showing someone their great new tricks, we use treats to ensure they do it though

Erin, did you sign any paperwork when you joined up? You know the sort of thing like your name & address, dogs name/age etc? And did he give you a receipt for the money?

I'd be inclined to call Consumer Affairs & see what they have to say, cos Im pretty sure you are entitled to some money back ;) .

Well, whilst strategically stalling him last night on the phone and at my OH, I had him look up "what rights to a refund" and unfortunately, the answer came up unanomously that if we simply change our mind, there's no refund. I tried this line of attack saying we signed nothing or weren't given any terms and conditions, and he advised that they don't do that, it's just common knowledge that they dont give refunds unless a dog or owner is terminally ill. Maybe I should have made up a sob story that one of them was sick? :S (*touches wood they aren't*)

As far as I can see, you have paid money in exchange for a service. The service you expected was suitable training for your dog. You have obviously not received suitable training, so they should give you your money back.

I do not claim to be an expert, or even particularly experienced, but as far as I can see, if they are trying to make your puppy work for over an hour, then they do not know as much about training as they might like to think, which makes them either ignorant or arrogant (or possibly both).

If you are still unhappy with how they are handling your concerns, tell them. Tell them you want a refund and if they say they have a no refunds policy ask them where that was stated on any contract you signed with them. Don't let them bully you - be firm.

Cheers,

DagBoy

He reckons we haven't given it a go though... He reckons after one nights training, you can't say that it's not going to work or what ever. Which I agree with.. it wasn't that the training method wasn't going to work over time, it was the fact that the style of training I don't think suits our needs. Unfortunately I didn't question this when we booked in.. Just assumed that everyone had swapped over to the new era style of training with treats. We want to keep our puppies as happy as we can, not them looking at us constantly for commands and doing things when we aren't even talking to them!

As it is, we miss next weeks training because they are getting desexed and can't participate.. If they go well tonight, we thought we'd go next week and just observe so we know what to do. But I can't see that happening. OH really isn't interested in doing it with this company. He said that we should maybe just put it off and hold the credit with them. I reminded him that it's not going to change the way they do their training, it's always going to be the same...

I'll update everyone tonight on how they go. We've been using the check chains whilst walking them in the mornings and experienced a huge change in the way they walk.

[Asalei]

I was just reading in that thread about what's your definition of obedience... and I guess what I've been trying to say this whole time is we want some socially acceptable dogs, that are still allowed to be puppies when they want.

Not ones that are going to compete and have titles and championship status, or quals in a certain area.

[PAX]

Erin,

I hope this works out for you, if you go somewhere else sit in and watch a class before you pay the money. There are lots of different ways to train a dog and lots of different people to train with, you will find a method you are happy with.

Good luck.

[Asalei]

PAX, if only I'd known/thought about that 2 weeks ago.. Trust me, I'm kicking myself... literally!

[PAX]

You know now so the training has taught you something.

[Mystiqview]

20 years probably of ramming dogs heads into ground to teach drop... yep.. that has to work...

15 years ago when I went to a Northside school of theirs (they called themselves a different name then).. they taught, one-two-three-YANK!!!... No praise (even verbal) Only correction..

I was warned about them when I first moved over to this side of town.. I thought I would have a sticky beak.. I had to walk away after 10 minutes of watching them otherwise I was temped to call the RSPCA for animal cruelty from their instructors. I did report them though.. and the response.. "they have been doing it that way for the last 30 years"

They are not dog trainers.. they are dog torturers.