Age For Obedience

[bloss344]

Why do I feel nervous about ringing him?!

Because you didn't feel comfortable with his attitude at the class. I think it's worthwhile ringing and explaining why you don't think this class is for you.

[Asalei]

Also, are you training them together or one at a time? You might find it easier to keep their concentration if you train them one at a time. That way they can concentrate on you instead of their partner.

When we are doing the training at home, we do it seperately.. OH goes in the back yard and I go in the front. Otherwise if I do one, then go get the other, they whinge and bitch because they are seperated.

At class, OH had one and I had the other and the plan was to rotate the dog each week so we both had a go at the one dog.

[Asalei]

Well I rang him last night but his wife answered the phone. She said he was busy and I tried to talk to her. But she told me that I would need to talk to the guy and he'd ring me back... Still no phone call. Rude

[Asalei]

Just a question with the check chains.. Should we be using them when we go for our walks in the morning to teach them to heel? I'm against it because we were told they were just for training.. but we came home today and my hand was sore from pulling her back to heel all the time and her pulling forward.

Should we be using the check chains when walking to teach them to heel on a proper walk?

[Luke GSP]

It sounds to me like you know what you want to achieve with your dogs and probably know how to achieve it, or at least have access to the knowledge/techniques to achieve it.

My wife and I attended a puppy class and found it very frustrating as they focused heavily on the style/length of our lead and whether or not we were holding it correctly with both hands, with our hands in the correct position. What we wanted was tips and techniques on how to encourage our dogs to walk where we wanted them to. We still attend the classes as we would eventually like to enter either obedience/gun dog trials or agility and they will not let you in to these classes without going through there "puppy class".

We have trained a lot at home probably 5 to 10 minutes a day using knowledge and advice from books/DVD's and asking other people who I see with well trained dogs. We have managed to train ours to Sit or lie down either next to us or remotely through verbal or hand comands, they do not jump up at us or our guests or steal/beg food of the table. They only eat on command they also walk nicely on leads without pulling. They will also return 95% of the time when called now unless there is a serious distraction. I am proud of them as they are becoming a real pleasure to have and work with, I am not a genius or gifted dog whisperer,listener or Dr dolittle.

I think that part of your issue is that you need the confidence to have a go yourself. there is plenty of advice available at all levels and in various ways/styles of training reading and writing on this very forum. If you come up with a problem that really stumps you ask on here. If you look at the forum most of the topics keep coming up this is because dogs are not as complex as humans and they have a fairly limited number of responses to outside stimulus, hence they can all display similar behaviours depending on the way they are treated/handled. Once you grasp what they are it is just a case of finding a way to make your dogs responses work for you.

Please do not feel that this is a personal attack on you, you obviously love your pups and want to do the best things for them and anyone who loves dogs is all right by me.

Sorry for the lengthy reply.

[Asalei]

Lengthy replies are good, that means I'm learning something

Initially we wanted our girls to attend obedience just so they would walk nicely beside us on lead and to sit and stay when asked.. Plus just have that general obedience and knowing that we say the commands and they listen. This was wanted because we really want them to participate in our wedding and we feel the way they are at the moment with their attitudes (puppy attitudes), they won't be able to. It's still 10 weeks away, so it is feesable to be able to teach them stuff, I just need to know how.

I didn't take your post as a personal attack at all! Just you letting me know what we need to do. We know our girls respond very well to reward based training as that's what's worked in the past.. so maybe we need to find a club or learn techniques ourselves and use that form of training. I just wish I was home more during the day to be able to teach them.

Thanks for your response luke dixon.

[huski]

Erin I had a similar issue with my puppy pre school class. It went for over an hour, the trainer was very narrow minded and Daisy absolutely hated it.

You know the training club I go to has a club president who trains beagles, and he has given me some great advice. The first week I went it was awful as Daisy was totally unresponsive and was more interested in anything but training! When the club pres came to give me some tips I told him Daisy wasn't that food motivated - he asked to see my treats (they were dry liver treats). He laughed and got some kabana out of him pocket, and got Daisy to heel, sit, look etc perfectly for him!

Because beagles are scent hounds, they are very hard to train, because they want to put their nose to the ground all the time. I thought Daisy wasn't food motivated, but it was just becase the food I had didn't have a high enough value. Now I train with roast chicken, cheese, kabana etc she is like a different dog.

I would definately try training your guys with food. A large number of people at my club don't, but I know what I need to motivate my dog and that's yummy food If you want to use treats to train your dogs than that is your perogative!

If you wanted to use a training collar for walks, the black dog martingale collars are great, they are normal collar material rather than chain so its much more comfortable for the dog.

http://www.blackdog.net.au/TrainCollarInfo.html

http://www.blackdog.net.au/collars.php

[Luke GSP]

Other than the obedience training what are you doing to establish yourself and OH as the alpha pair within your pack? A dog will follow it's leader pretty much to the death unquestioned because they trust that what the leader is asking of them is the best for the pack. Obviously as dogs don't talk most of this communication is by body language, eye contact etc. We employed several key techniques to establish my wife and I as Alpha's to the oldest dog that I have currently (18 months old) and it radically changed his behaviour (in a good way) in 48 hrs.

Martingale collars are great IMHO

Edited April 27, 2007 by luke dixon

[Asalei]

I spoke to the guy .. and because I'm a softy and don't stand up for myself, he told us to come back next week as the first week is normally very daunting. I expressed my concern for the length of time the class went for and said that maybe we should participate in an hour of the class and observe the rest as the girls got way to tired. I said that the instructor kept advising me to make my dog stand/sit. But she was seriously too tired to do anything but lie down. I would pull her up to a sitting position and she would just collapse back down and curl up to go to sleep.

He told me we need to perservere with it and see how we go next week. Do the training at home and see how they go. He told me not to use treats as they won't learn this way, they need to learn from the tone of your voice.

He didn't give us an option to pull out either. I was trying to push for it, but he just wouldn't allow it. Just kept telling us to keep going and do the training and see how we go. Also advised us that we should be walking them on a check chain to train them how to walk. We should also not be letting them sniff the ground.. Question is.. HOW THE HELL DO YOU STOP A SCENT HOUND FROM SNIFFING THE GROUND FFS!?

*sigh* I guess we'll just go next week and see how far we get this week. The week after we won't be able to attend as the girls are getting fixed up. I so wish I had of gone and observed them first before paying up

I just looked for obedience training in the yellow pages and rang a few companies. I guess thats where I went wrong and I wasn't registered here yet.

Guess I'm stuck hey :S

[Luke GSP]

I spoke to the guy .. and because I'm a softy and don't stand up for myself, he told us to come back next week as the first week is normally very daunting. I expressed my concern for the length of time the class went for and said that maybe we should participate in an hour of the class and observe the rest as the girls got way to tired. I said that the instructor kept advising me to make my dog stand/sit. But she was seriously too tired to do anything but lie down. I would pull her up to a sitting position and she would just collapse back down and curl up to go to sleep.

Why not let the girls have an hour each or 1/2 hour with you and then 1/2 hour with your OH if both of you are there.

He told me we need to perservere with it and see how we go next week. Do the training at home and see how they go. He told me not to use treats as they won't learn this way, they need to learn from the tone of your voice.

This is great in theory but any dog does things by asking itself "whats in it for me". with some, affection may be enough with others it might be tidbits. Once they know what they are supposed to be doing you can remove/decrease the reward as they have now learned the behaviour , they see you as the alpha and you have asked something from them hence they will comply.

He didn't give us an option to pull out either. I was trying to push for it, but he just wouldn't allow it. Just kept telling us to keep going and do the training and see how we go. Also advised us that we should be walking them on a check chain to train them how to walk. We should also not be letting them sniff the ground.. Question is.. HOW THE HELL DO YOU STOP A SCENT HOUND FROM SNIFFING THE GROUND FFS!?

I would suggest that you place a fairly strong smelling food stuff (possibly cheese) in the palm of your hand at your hip on the dogs side of your body and then walk along patting your hand on your hip giving vocal encouragement as you wlk if the dogs head starts to drop let it have sniff of the treat so that it looks up. at first frequently give the treat to the dog whilst it is focused on you and then extend the gaps between actually getting the treat as the dogs attention span lengthens.

I still think that you need to confirm your position as ALpha as you will find that your pup will pay a lot more attention to you once it believes that you are in charge. It will then believe that when you are on the move the pack is on the move so it had better be walking with you or it might be left behind.

*sigh* I guess we'll just go next week and see how far we get this week. The week after we won't be able to attend as the girls are getting fixed up. I so wish I had of gone and observed them first before paying up

I just looked for obedience training in the yellow pages and rang a few companies. I guess thats where I went wrong and I wasn't registered here yet.

Guess I'm stuck hey :S

Edited April 27, 2007 by luke dixon

[MrsD]

I spoke to the guy .. and because I'm a softy and don't stand up for myself, he told us to come back next week as the first week is normally very daunting. I expressed my concern for the length of time the class went for and said that maybe we should participate in an hour of the class and observe the rest as the girls got way to tired. I said that the instructor kept advising me to make my dog stand/sit. But she was seriously too tired to do anything but lie down. I would pull her up to a sitting position and she would just collapse back down and curl up to go to sleep.

He told me we need to perservere with it and see how we go next week. Do the training at home and see how they go. He told me not to use treats as they won't learn this way, they need to learn from the tone of your voice.

He didn't give us an option to pull out either. I was trying to push for it, but he just wouldn't allow it. Just kept telling us to keep going and do the training and see how we go. Also advised us that we should be walking them on a check chain to train them how to walk. We should also not be letting them sniff the ground.. Question is.. HOW THE HELL DO YOU STOP A SCENT HOUND FROM SNIFFING THE GROUND FFS!?

*sigh* I guess we'll just go next week and see how far we get this week. The week after we won't be able to attend as the girls are getting fixed up. I so wish I had of gone and observed them first before paying up

I just looked for obedience training in the yellow pages and rang a few companies. I guess thats where I went wrong and I wasn't registered here yet.

Guess I'm stuck hey :S

Erin, if you dont want to try either of the clubs I suggested & want to go to someone who runs a business making money out of dog obedience at least let me know who you are considering & hopefully I can let you know what they are like or suggest someone good .

BTW, he sounds like a bully - both with people & with his training methods.

Luke, whilst I agree with most of the things you have said, it's not quite so easy as just "making yourself alpha" when you dont have any experience of how to train a dog or what specific dog breeds are like to train. Erin needs to go somewhere that they can be shown the most effective way to deal with their puppies & where she can get lots of different ideas & ways to try until she finds something that works. Suggestions of what to do over the web are all well & good, but being actually shown what to do is by far the easiest & most effective way for her to learn.

Edited to add - sorry Erin I think I misunderstood your post, I thought you were still looking in the yellow pages for trainers, but I think you mean when you chose the one you're at now .....

Edited April 27, 2007 by MrsD

[Tali]

I'm also in Brisbane and will be looking for an obedience club in the near future - any chance you could forward me the list of recommended obedience schools off list too? (I don't know how to mail someone off list yet - sorry!)

I'm especially interested as I see you have a Sheltie, which is what i'm looking at getting.

[MrsD]

I'm also in Brisbane and will be looking for an obedience club in the near future - any chance you could forward me the list of recommended obedience schools off list too? (I don't know how to mail someone off list yet - sorry!)

I'm especially interested as I see you have a Sheltie, which is what i'm looking at getting.

Hi Tali, where about in Brisbane are you?

[Tali]

I'm also in Brisbane and will be looking for an obedience club in the near future - any chance you could forward me the list of recommended obedience schools off list too? (I don't know how to mail someone off list yet - sorry!)

I'm especially interested as I see you have a Sheltie, which is what i'm looking at getting.

Hi Tali, where about in Brisbane are you?

Southwest Brissy - Centenary suburbs area.

[Kavik]

Erin

While it is possible to train a dog using pats and praise only as rewards, it is much easier (and more fun!) to use motivators like food. I have breeds that are 'traditionally' seen as easy to train and good for obedience - GSDs and Kelpies - and I still use food and toys for training! Beagles with their interest in scenting, are probably best off using food and toys as their interest is not necessarily in serving you. So I would just stop going to this training centre, and find another one with different methods. You don't have to justify to him why you are leaving. I have been a member of a club and stopped going, for various reasons.

For not sniffing: I let my guys sniff on their walks when they are in 'free' mode, not training. When we are in 'working' mode such as heeling I don't let them sniff - this is where I have their attention with food/toys. You can also do exercises which help to build attention on you.

[Asalei]

Edited to add - sorry Erin I think I misunderstood your post, I thought you were still looking in the yellow pages for trainers, but I think you mean when you chose the one you're at now .....

Robyn, yeah, I meant way back when when I was looking for an obedience place. OH and I had decided we would come out to the club that you suggested, but with this guy not really willing to give our money back, or giving us the option of either continuing or pulling out.. doesn't really help. $320 is a lot for us to spend and we had hoped we'd get the most out of it... I don't think I can just walk away and leave them with the money with us getting nothing for it

I just wish I had of looked more thoroughly into different clubs.

Erin

While it is possible to train a dog using pats and praise only as rewards, it is much easier (and more fun!) to use motivators like food. I have breeds that are 'traditionally' seen as easy to train and good for obedience - GSDs and Kelpies - and I still use food and toys for training! Beagles with their interest in scenting, are probably best off using food and toys as their interest is not necessarily in serving you. So I would just stop going to this training centre, and find another one with different methods. You don't have to justify to him why you are leaving. I have been a member of a club and stopped going, for various reasons.

For not sniffing: I let my guys sniff on their walks when they are in 'free' mode, not training. When we are in 'working' mode such as heeling I don't let them sniff - this is where I have their attention with food/toys. You can also do exercises which help to build attention on you.

Kavik, as per what I've said to MrsD above, unfortunately we seemed to have paid quite a substantial amount for the training and I don't think I could just walk away and leave that amount of money with them and us get nothing...

I might try getting OH to ring him and ask for the money back. I'd really prefer to go somewhere that caters for smaller puppies and their needs, rather than just a broad range of things.

I kinda feel that now I've said something to him about the time the class went for and the attitude of the instructor, that we'll now be treated differently due to our concerns :S

[Kavik]

I hope that they do treat you differently if you decide to continue with them

Personally, having seen the effects that some methods can have on some dogs, walking away regardless of the money lost at the time sometimes saves money, heartache and issues later down the track.

Most local dog clubs I have been to charge around $20 a year and $2 or so a week that you attend.

[Tali]

Hi Erin

I'm not hugely experienced, but i can understand you feeling compelled to stay and try to get something from the class. Perhaps look at it as a chance to practice with your dog with other dogs around, and a chance for socialisation. When in the class, don't use food if that's what they require, but remember you will have the dogs for life, not the life of the class, so don't let the instructor bully you if you don't think it is working for YOUR dogs. If you find they respond better to rewards etc out of class, then that's YOUR call, not his/hers.

As with anything in life, try to approach open to the chance to learn something, and take only what is useful for you - seems to me they've already taught you something about dog training (and perhaps what you DON"T want!). Have the confidence that you've committed to these dogs for their lives, and you have to do what's right for them - even if you do receive some frowning disapproval from the instructor. You might even learn some stuff along the way that will be useful - and you might meet some doggy friends and organise "play dates" at other times to help socialise your little ones! Just my penny's worth....

[huski]

Kavik, as per what I've said to MrsD above, unfortunately we seemed to have paid quite a substantial amount for the training and I don't think I could just walk away and leave that amount of money with them and us get nothing...

I might try getting OH to ring him and ask for the money back. I'd really prefer to go somewhere that caters for smaller puppies and their needs, rather than just a broad range of things.

I kinda feel that now I've said something to him about the time the class went for and the attitude of the instructor, that we'll now be treated differently due to our concerns :S

From the sounds of it you're not getting anything out of the class by staying there anyway

I totally agree with what Kavik said re: food, anything soft and smelly will help get the puppies noses off the ground and attention onto you I can't see how this trainer expects to teach scent hound puppies obedience without food or toy motivation.

[Mystiqview]

Puppies can start obedience at an early age. As young as 8 weeks. But in saying that I would never dream of doing "obedience" with the puppy for a half hour to hour.

2 minutes 20 times a day is far better... ( I know as if we would do that..but hope you can see what I am saying though)

Short positive sessions is far better than one long session.

Problem with many obedience clubs. Is some people pay their $4 and think that to get their money's worth (and the time worth in getting down to training), they have to paddock bash for an hour.