Age For Obedience

[Asalei]

Well, we attended our first obedience class on Tuesday night just gone, and I can't say it went too well.

I'm actually thinking the puppies are a bit too young to be concentrating on obedience for 2 hours. I didn't expect the class to go so long, but we were there from 7pm till 9:30pm and all the puppies wanted to do is go to sleep. When the instructor kept telling us to make them sit, Sally would stand up and then drop to the ground straight away and curl up to go to sleep. I feel that it's way too long for them to concentrate for. I could tell they were starting to get frustrated by then end as she started trashing around on the chain and throwing herself around. She wasn't doing this in the beginning at all. As soon as she tried to pull, the chain would tighten and she'd sit back down. I think by the end she was just so tired and just wanted to sleep. No matter how much pulling on the chain, sitting her up, making her sit was going to keep her up.

So my question is, are they too young to be participating in obedience? Should we maybe put it off another few months until they can concentrate for a little longer than they are? They are 5 months old at the moment.. maybe we are trying to get them to do things too soon?

Any trainers, instructors on DOL have an opinions? I just don't want to be pushing them to do something when they are never going to be able to concentrate enough to learn. I understand training is repitition and patience, but last night was more than just patience, they were soo frustrated. We had to carry them home they were so buggered.

I'm tempted to ring the instructor and ask if we can postpone for a few months, or ask for a pro-rata refund.. but I don't know how fair that is. It was a bit of money to lose if we don't go back.. especially seeming we are saving madly for a wedding

Any advice?

[shoemonster]

1/2 hour is too long for a puppy class IMO

They aren't too young at all, but the class sounds very wrong for any puppy

Puppy training should be quick and fun, a few min work, then a play, etc

Can you just go for the first 1/2 hour (or even less), and put them in a crate and watch for the rest of the class, it would probably be a lot more beneficial

Edited April 25, 2007 by shoemonster

[Tim Fairchild]

Never too young, but you need to break it up in smaller chunks. I do a couple of minutes at a time, 5 at most, then break to play, then maybe a few minutes more. Best done at home in small breaks, but you learn what to do at class... Unfortunately many classes are set up wrong for puppies.

[bridgie_cat]

plenty old enough! But when starting out obedience with a pup it is v important to make the sessions short & fun... the impresions they make of training early will be very important if you want them to train happily later. You can gradualy build up the time you have them training for. It is good to do lots of short sessions (a few tricks or a couple mins) just when you are at home so they can get the idea of the things you are asking them to do at training but in a 'safe' environment...

That is a really long training! We only do 45mins and this is too long for most pups!

[Sayreovi]

You can start obedience at any age, but no one should expect a puppy to still be concentrating for so long. You would be hard pressed to find an adult who would be as good at the end of two hours as at the start. Its just too long for any dog.

[JulesP]

My puppy class was an hour but that included time for the pups to just play at the beginning and lots of talking (during which the pups would be given relaxing pats). I started at about 9 weeks. This is an important time for pup to be learning stuff about the world, so I wouldn't be waiting until your pup was older. If you think your pup has had enough you could excuse yourself and go home early or just sit and watch.

Something that worried me about your post was you said 'chain'. Are you using a correction chain? I'm not keen on using them on pups. A flat collar is plenty.

[dogdude]

I agree with Shoey.

You need to realise that the training is for your benefit, to later benefit the dog. You dont need to actively be working your pup the whole time in class. As soon as they show the earliest sign of bordem, put him away and just listen. If you are not learning anything from just listening, then think about getting a refund.

Just remember that most clubs have volunteer instructors, so instructing experience varys widely.

Far too many instructors are too busy barking commands to stop and talk to the class about the finer points and the reasons for giving all of those commands.

[MrsD]

Erin, what club/class was it? PM me if you'd prefer not to tell everyone.

I agree with the others, 5 months isnt too young, but at that age you should only be doing a few minutes at a time & then having a break. And certainly not for 2.5 hrs even an hour is probably too long in reality, although that's how long many classes go for.

[Asalei]

My puppy class was an hour but that included time for the pups to just play at the beginning and lots of talking (during which the pups would be given relaxing pats). I started at about 9 weeks. This is an important time for pup to be learning stuff about the world, so I wouldn't be waiting until your pup was older. If you think your pup has had enough you could excuse yourself and go home early or just sit and watch.

Something that worried me about your post was you said 'chain'. Are you using a correction chain? I'm not keen on using them on pups. A flat collar is plenty.

It's a check chain.. they made us buy one as the collars they've got aren't strong enough and we couldn't use their harnesses (which we understand).

I think if they won't give us a refund, we might just go and have them participate in some of it. Kinda seems a waste though paying that amount of money to just stand there :S

We really only wanted to make them walk beside us and not keep pulling on the lead, and to stay seated when we ask. Maybe these are two things people can teach us without having to go to a class?

The instructor was pretty brutal. He came over to me and told me to make my dog stand, she needs to be learning my commands and do what I ask. Which I totally understand, but when she's been trying to concentrate (at this stage) for 1 and a half hours, I don't think she's going to listen to anyone unless they tell her to go to sleep!

MrsD, I'll PM you just incase

We do do training at home, but just very basic stuff and not for long periods of time, as we learnt at puppy school to do short bursts of training so their concentration is working.

Thanks for the advice, I think we might just postpone or as for a refund. It feels too cruel to have puppies that just want to sleep, on a check chain, whilst they just want to sleep.

Also, OH wants to walk them on a check chain but I refuse as we were told they were "just for training".. Is this a way to teach the puppies to walk beside us? Is to use the check chain whilst we go on our morning walks?

[shoemonster]

I think if they won't give us a refund, we might just go and have them participate in some of it. Kinda seems a waste though paying that amount of money to just stand there :S

Don't think of it as "just standing there"

Classes at clubs realistically don't teach the dog anything, they teach you what to do once you are home. Training should be done is small sessions every day, as if you leave it only to the classeseach week you will find it a long frustrating process.

I'm guessing they haven't been using food with the puppies either? When you go for your walks start by giving the pup a small treat when they are near your side, beagles will follow their nose, but if they know they get a treat you will have their attention some of the time at least! lol Just make sure you work the treats into their daily food allowance so they don't chnk up as beagles are good at putting on weight!

ETA the instructor sounds like an idiot, asking you to get thge pup to do something it hasn't learnt yet

Edited April 25, 2007 by shoemonster

[Asalei]

With the attitudes we experienced the other night, I don't think they'd allow it for someone to watch the class without participating as such.

The guy walked along and said "make sure your dog sitting facing the road by your side" as he walked past me. I said "she won't sit or stand, she's too tired!" He walks off and gets everyones attention and said "There two words in obedience that don't exist, can't and won't".. I felt kinda embarrassed... but I knew my poor pup was just so tired, she couldn't sit. He kept telling me to take a step forward to make her sit.. but she get up, walk, sit, then drop back to sleep. *sigh*

I always thought the new style of training was with treats... So we were quite suprised when there were no treats and just a check chain. Maybe we should take some treats in our pockets and just sneak them *giggle*.

We realise they are scent hounds and are never going to stay by oursides the whole time (there's too many sniffs out there!), but to just have them at least stop pulling on the leads would be great. It's hard as well as they both like to be in front and if you walk one behind the other, it's just not on in their minds!

Our beagles don't really eat their meals.. apparently their "eat everything" button hasn't been pushed yet

[dogdude]

It sounds like your instructor is very one dimensional from your feedback, and perhaps does not have enough experience to be taking a class. To make an example of your concern in front of the class is ridiculous, and I would have made that quite clear to the club.

I would write a letter to the club to let them know about this instructor, as he will only scare off countless other newbys offended by him, and that would be a shame for the dogs.

Just remember that he is not "the club", as there could be real gems of mentors to gain knowledge from, either training or other instructors.

Beleive it or not, there is one of these types at every club. At the end of the day, they are your dogs, and you can do what ever you like in their management. You are a paid up member.

We activley encourage our handlers to leave class whenever they see fit.

[bloss344]

Are all the classes going to be 2 hours or was it just the first one. I don't think 3 year old Bob would cope with 2 hours!! Perhaps look for somewhere else that suits your needs better.

[Asalei]

From what we gathered, every class will be 2 hours long as there were other groups there Tuesday night that were still going when we left at 9:30... So I guess that's just how long they go every week?

I think the best thing for us to do is request a pro-rata refund and look elsewhere for a club that's more puppy friendly.

[MrsD]

FWIW dogdude, it's not a club, its a privately owned business, owner operated that runs classes.

I've PMed Erin & suggested a couple of places for her where I think she will be happier with the training .

[shoemonster]

If thats the case (not a club but an individual) I would go somewhere else

Even if you don't get the money back you will be better off not being taught things that are appropriate to the age and level of the pups, and you will just end up disapointed and lose interest in obed

[Asalei]

I'd really like to get the money back!! It would pay for our wedding cake...

[shoemonster]

Yeah, definitely try for the money back!

But what I'm saying is if you can't get it back, don't go to the classes and let the pups suffer because you're worried about it being wasted

[Asalei]

Yes, very true.. I love my babies too much to put them through that hell!

Although, OH would probably say, we've paid.. we need to attend. We didn't sign anything, just given a receipt for the money.

Why do I feel nervous about ringing him?!

[Kavik]

I would certainly go somewhere else. You want to find somewhere that will help you to find what motivates your dog, and use that to your advantage in training.

Have you tried using treats? If they don't eat their food enthusiastically, maybe they are not hungry, and could have their food reduced.

You can also try toys - tugs, balls, squeaky toys, fluffy toys.

Some treats which my dogs really like are: cheese, cabanossi, chicken, etc. I mainly use cheese.

Also, are you training them together or one at a time? You might find it easier to keep their concentration if you train them one at a time. That way they can concentrate on you instead of their partner.