frank Posted April 22, 2007 Share Posted April 22, 2007 well my pup baley is 5 months old now , and he seems to think he is ranked higher than my daughter who is 9 . he plays that rough with her he attacks her and gets her on the ground and bites her hair whilst growling , he also rips her clothes . he doesnt listen to her objecting and yelling . he has been to puppy school . i'm sure he is only playing , not savagely attacking her . i am running out when this happens and yellyng . bailey no . and grabbing the back of his neck . putting him on his back and pinning him down with my teeth at hios throat . then he freezes . is this the way , in dog terms to let him know this is just not on . as spraying cold water on him is useless. when i had my germnan shepard i did this with him anfd he never attacked anyone, unless threatened . which he was never given the portunity to attack thoughts and comments welcome !!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted April 22, 2007 Share Posted April 22, 2007 Until you get things under control, I would not leave them alone unsupervised. Possibly keep Baley on a lead, so you can stop and redirect any inappropriate behaviour right away. I wouldn't let it get to the stage that she is on the ground with Baley on her. Does she start the roughhousing with Baley? If so, I would get her to find more appropriate play instead. What commands does Baley know? At 9 your daughter is old enough to help out a little with training and feeding. Can she get Baley to sit for a treat? If Baley is sitting he can't be roughhousing. Also this reinforces hierarchy without beiong physical. You want to supervise so that Baley listens to her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted April 22, 2007 Share Posted April 22, 2007 (edited) Frank..there will probably be much better ideas than mine along soon...I would suggest that your daughter does some leash work with young Baley! Show her how to walk him around, and get him to sit, etc. yelling and shouting at a dog/pup is natural..but I see them interpreting it as you 'barking' and joining in!!! have him around her only on a long lead..and do NOT let her play with him, or talk to him unless he is sitting quietly, and she is approaching him calmly! As for your method of getting him submissive...while it may work..you would look a trifle ridiculous doing it whilst out walking ...and it does put you awfully near the pointy end, and possible danger. None of our dogs have ever attacked anyone...and we have never had to resort to the method you use.... May I also suggest he gets some tough interactive toys...kongs, and a soccer ball, for starters, so he can wear off some energy. That, and his 2 walks each day should help...he will be maybe be a bit less excitable. edit to say "snap, " kavik Edited April 22, 2007 by persephone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted April 22, 2007 Share Posted April 22, 2007 I cant help but ask but how does your 5 month cocker get your daughter down to the ground,what does she do prior to this event happening whilst i certainly agree that order in the whole house needs to be replaced it seems like somthing is missing from the equation. Personally i think your method of pinning is way off the mark.will create major issues & isnt teaching the dog anything .The fact is the game /lack of order started well before hand so by the time YOU have disciplined him he hasnt a real clue why & the person he feels higher in rank has done nothing to become higher up,you have done it all & the dog has won the battle in that game.If your method was working it wouldnt be happeneing again & again. Puppy school means nothing & if your relying on just that things will go wrong. It sounds like your daughter needs to look at what she is doing & she seriously needs to be intergrated into the daily routine to retain leadership skills. It sounds like both are starting off playing but when it gets to much the dog wins,realistically there is no reason why a cocker baby should be pulling your daughter to the ground Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaywoman68 Posted April 22, 2007 Share Posted April 22, 2007 (edited) Bailey seems to be seeing your daughter as one of him (dog). Definitely supervision is needed when Bailey is with your daughter. Make sure she's not on the ground at all when she's with him. Lack of interaction with your daughter can be part of the problem because he doesn't know who's boss (that is, everyone in the household is higher in the pack than him) How often does Bailey have interaction with your daughter or any member of the family? Everytime Bailey comes for a cuddle (whether when you're watching TV, lying on the ground relaxing, breakfast/dinner time), make sure he sits before he is rewarded. Have you taken him to further training since Puppy school? It sounds like Bailey needs more training. Take Bailey and your daughter to dog obedience school and get your daughter to be the one to train him. Bailey is still a puppy and he has a lot more to learn. I had some trouble with Orson when I first got him cos I was mothering him too much. He has improved a lot since then but I had to be strict with him. A 5 month old Cocker isnt' very big at all....... Edited April 22, 2007 by kaywoman68 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTD Posted April 22, 2007 Share Posted April 22, 2007 I would suggest some higher obedience training also . Maybe let your daughter be involved in this training as it is not only training for Bailey but also training you and your daughter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank Posted April 22, 2007 Author Share Posted April 22, 2007 I cant help but ask but how does your 5 month cocker get your daughter down to the ground,what does she do prior to this event happening whilst i certainly agree that order in the whole house needs to be replaced it seems like somthing is missing from the equation.Personally i think your method of pinning is way off the mark.will create major issues & isnt teaching the dog anything .The fact is the game /lack of order started well before hand so by the time YOU have disciplined him he hasnt a real clue why & the person he feels higher in rank has done nothing to become higher up,you have done it all & the dog has won the battle in that game.If your method was working it wouldnt be happeneing again & again. Puppy school means nothing & if your relying on just that things will go wrong. It sounds like your daughter needs to look at what she is doing & she seriously needs to be intergrated into the daily routine to retain leadership skills. It sounds like both are starting off playing but when it gets to much the dog wins,realistically there is no reason why a cocker baby should be pulling your daughter to the ground thanks for the replies . i have only started this technique today . he has only been able to do this lately as in the last week he has grown alot . as far as my technique goes , it is a play for me , nothing i would do on the street as he would be on a lead . it is mainly when she goes out the back to play . she may ride her bike which causes him to chase . or run which also causes him to chase . he goes for her hair , it is long thats how he gets her down. she does feed , walk and commands him to sit , and he does . with me , i havent been that involved in playing with the dog . but i meet a dog 1/2 way when they play . if they get rough so do i . but that is play . if a dog were to get carried away and bite , then it's time for ignorance and a lead . what i think he is doing is picking up her fear , when he gets rough . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaywoman68 Posted April 22, 2007 Share Posted April 22, 2007 (edited) he goes for her hair , it is long thats how he gets her down. she does feed , walk and commands him to sit , and he does . with me , i havent been that involved in playing with the dog . but i meet a dog 1/2 way when they play . if they get rough so do i . but that is play . if a dog were to get carried away and bite , then it's time for ignorance and a lead . what i think he is doing is picking up her fear , when he gets rough . You should NOT meet Bailey 1/2 way in play. If he gets too rough, you need to make him stop because otherwise he doesn't know WHEN to stop. Get your daughter to tie her hair up. I'm assuming it's tied in a ponytail but what I mean is get her to tie it up so it's shorter than the actual length or in a bun type..... ETA: Highlighting the bits I'm referring to... Edited April 22, 2007 by kaywoman68 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank Posted April 22, 2007 Author Share Posted April 22, 2007 (edited) You shouldn't meet Bailey 1/2 way in play. If he gets too rough, you need to make him stop because otherwise he doesn't know WHEN to stop.Get your daughter to tie her hair up. I'm assuming it's tied in a ponytail but what I mean is get her to tie it up so it's shorter than the actual length or in a bun type..... ok thanks . i think it is just a puppy stage, he doesnt know he is doing wrong , and other than that is a good playfull obedient dog . i havent had any trouble stopping it . but i will supervise her with him in the yard from now on , andf get her to do some more walking with lead and training him. other than this it's an absolute joy to hear the kids laughing so much and playing with him, he beats them at dodge ball. but for some reason he is a bit rough with her .the growls come Edited April 22, 2007 by frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted April 22, 2007 Share Posted April 22, 2007 he doesn't know it's wrong, because he hasn't been taught that it iS wrong;) he needs to be told at the FIRST sign of roughness.EVERYTHING has to stop...the kids especially have to understand that how they behave affects the way the pup behaves! Each has to learn to react appropriately. have a read here...I have a lot of respect for Karen's trying to lessen the bites etc on kids. http://www.paw-rescue.org/PAW/PETTIPS/DogT...sSafeDogs_1.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted April 22, 2007 Share Posted April 22, 2007 You especially need to supervise the times he is likely to chase - in this case when she is running or riding her bike. This can get dogs very excited! As soon as things start to get rough, I would stop play and get him to sit and calm down. Time out if he is continually too rough or excited, until he calms down. I don't roughhouse with my dogs either. Prey drive work/tug is the roughest I ever go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted April 22, 2007 Share Posted April 22, 2007 You shouldn't meet Bailey 1/2 way in play. If he gets too rough, you need to make him stop because otherwise he doesn't know WHEN to stop. Get your daughter to tie her hair up. I'm assuming it's tied in a ponytail but what I mean is get her to tie it up so it's shorter than the actual length or in a bun type..... ok thanks . i think it is just a puppy stage, he doesnt know he is doing wrong , and other than that is a good playfull obedient dog . i havent had any trouble stopping it . but i will supervise her with him in the yard from now on , andf get her to do some more walking with lead and training him. other than this it's an absolute joy to hear the kids laughing so much and playing with him, he beats them at dodge ball. but for some reason he is a bit rough with her .the growls come Yes you don't have any trouble stopping the play BUT YOUR DAUGHTER IS!! Stop with the rough play!! Get yourself some professional help- otherwise this WILL turn bad in the future. Mel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted April 22, 2007 Share Posted April 22, 2007 You say when he gets rough you get rougher thats exactly what he expects from your daughter ,it is taught behaviour that he believes is very acceptable. You cant have halfway games & then not like the results. Im sorry to say but its time for all the family members to go back to training especially you your createing a monster rough house playing is the biggest nono its like stirring the pot but not wanting to deal with the results,you cant half stir & have your cake & it eat it so to speak. Your 5 month old has aquired bad behaviour .It chases,it plays so rough you say it pulls your daughter down,growls .That isnt a good resume for a young pup so you need to look at why & what the adults are doing to contribute.Dont just put it down to puppy stage because this isnt your run of the mill puppy stage manners.Not one of my dogs over the years & i have had many from small breed to large have done any of this type of thing & if they did it would only be once. There is a big difference between an exerubate pup & a pup that plays so rough it doesnt now when to end it at present you have the latter plus confusion. When it comes to bike time i would either place pupy in the house for its time out so she can ride or have the dog onlead & use it as a training exercise . Sorry to say but it sounds like this pup is very confused about what is acceptable it doesnt understand 9 year old versus adult man it just understand rough play thats allowed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted April 22, 2007 Share Posted April 22, 2007 I am 100% in agreement with showdog. There should be NO body contact sport between dogs and children, and NO rough-housing. The pup does not understand it is wrong. It is up to you to let him know. Games with children and dogs should involve an inanimate object, such as a ball, soft toy etc. Not the child. He may trot behind the bike, or run with it, but not interfere with the rider. He may not pull hair, clothing etc. He is playing with her as he would play with his brother. She is not his brother, and the time to stop it is not when it is happening, but before it happens. Your daughter should not be in the position she is in with the pup. If he begins, she must give him the "sit" command, and quietly reward him - not excite him - or she should walk away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank Posted April 22, 2007 Author Share Posted April 22, 2007 I am 100% in agreement with showdog.There should be NO body contact sport between dogs and children, and NO rough-housing. The pup does not understand it is wrong. It is up to you to let him know. Games with children and dogs should involve an inanimate object, such as a ball, soft toy etc. Not the child. He may trot behind the bike, or run with it, but not interfere with the rider. He may not pull hair, clothing etc. He is playing with her as he would play with his brother. She is not his brother, and the time to stop it is not when it is happening, but before it happens. Your daughter should not be in the position she is in with the pup. If he begins, she must give him the "sit" command, and quietly reward him - not excite him - or she should walk away. ok good points . i'll work on this and keep you's informed here , thanks for the advice . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted April 22, 2007 Share Posted April 22, 2007 Frank, you're not a dog. There is no need to pin down the dog and bare your teeth one day you're going to have your face bitten. NEVER EVER put yourself into a physically challenging position like that. You've been lucky so far. Dont ever teach your daughter to do it either, EVER. Keep the dog on a leash, if he starts jumping at your daughter she walks away and he doesnt get attention. You should always be present around them and the point is to punish at the beginning of the act, not after he has already gone too far. If he even goes for a nip, sin bin time. No attention. If you CANT have full control over the situation then keep them separate, dont give the dog and child an opportunity to get into strife. One of them will end up injured. Also keep dogs away from moving bikes, the wheels and chains can snag him or she can tumble on top of him, very dangerous. I agree get her to be involved in his obedience, he has to respect her as much as he respect you. Teach her NEVER to sit or lay on the ground when the pup gets excited and to stand up, cross her arms and stare at the sky if he does. No squealing, screaming, waving arms etc. And primary rule - no playing with the dog when dads not in the same space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 (edited) There is correction needed here but also some prevention. If your daughter wants to ride her bike, LOCK THE DOG UP If you can't be outside to supervise her when the puppy is there, LOCK THE DOG UP. Pinning the dog to the ground and bearing your teeth is not only potentially very dangerous but it is not PREVENTNG the behaviour. You need to be there to issue the correction and prevent your daughter from being pulled to the ground and rough housed. It would also be useful to teach the pupppy some games such as fetch that can channel its chase instinct more appropriately. 5 year olds are not physically or mentally capable of discplining a pup. That's your job Frank and if you can't be there they shouldn't be together. I agree with the suggestions about the use of a leash. Removing the dog from your daughter and telling it "ARRGHH" when it get's rough should be sufficient to deter the grabbing. Sounds to me like you need to do quite a bit of work teaching the dog to calmly interact with your daughter. You should not tolerate the pup being rough with anyone, including you. Dog's don't differentiate much between who they are playing with. Consistent expectations from you will assist. So no chasing, no grabbing, no mouthing, no jumping up, no playfighting with any human is the way to go. Edited April 23, 2007 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceilidh Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 If you can't be outside to supervise her when the puppy is there, LOCK THE DOG UP. You go in before me Poodefan, NO dog, whether big or small, young or adult, should be left alone with a child. EVER. Please remember this. Otherwise there is some very good information in this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poodle wrangler Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 (edited) I can imagine how it happens having seen my 9 year old normally dog sensible boy playing with our standard poodle pup yesterday. The more our dog jumped the more my son encouraged him, ran around, laughed and encouraged him to play bite. I went out and disciplined child, not dog. He soon had Charlie pup sitting, no jumping and playing sensibly. He gets a kick out of getting our dogs to "sit" "stay" "wait" etc. I wasn't worried about my son being injured, but it's teaching pup very bad habits. I don't want our dog to think it's OK to jump up on and chew children. It's surprising how many kids are frightened of dogs. Sends all the wrong messages about who's the boss, too. Was funny seeing the 3 year old telling pup to sit yesterday- she'd seen her brother doing it- scowl, serious voice, treat in hand: "It!" (trouble saying the 's') "Good dog". Edited April 23, 2007 by Poodle wrangler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavNrott Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 (edited) . Edited June 7, 2009 by cavNrott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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