Humiliated At Dog Training

[ruthless]

While walking out of Pet Barn one day with Chopper and Angel two ladies walked passd me on their way in and one said "what lovely dogs" and the other said "yeah, shame about the collars though". That kind of ignorance I can shrug off cause they just don't know better. People who claim to be dog trainers and judges really ought to know ALOT better!

I'm thinking about making covers for them for day to day use. I don't take criticism well, and someone accusing me of being a cruel owner can affect me for days even though I know it shouldn't.

[Erny]

Thanks Rom. The link worked straight away this time. Don't know why I only got the first part the initial time I tried. Maybe I need more patience. :D

[ruthless]

I just received this email... now I'm totally confused.

---

Good morning Ruth,

Thank you for your enquiry. I can confirm that prong/pinch collars are illegal in NSW, however the NSW Department of Local Government is not the regulating authority that deals with such matters.

As the matter involves the prevention of cruelty to animals issues, you should contact the RSPCA on 02 9770 7555 for further information.

I trust this information is of assistance.

Have a good day

Program Officer

Companion Animals Unit

NSW Department of Local Government

---

I've left out his name and contact details as I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post them.

[MonElite]

I can confirm that prong/pinch collars are illegal in NSW, however the NSW Department of Local Government is not the regulating authority that deals with such matters.

Confirmed with who/agains what? The person can confirm but has he actually confirmed? :D

Ask the person to confirm against some legislation or some official statement. They are illegal to what? own, use, produce, import (without permit) :D Ask the person what is illegal about them.

***********

on various sites, as well as on several training videos from overseas I have heard of prong collars being named fur savers. From now on Im going to call my collar a fur saver

Edited April 24, 2007 by myszka

[MonElite]

ruthless is it this study you were looking for?

http://www.cobankopegi.com/prong.html#AStudy

They say in that article that the info from the study comes from an Anne Marie Silverton seminar. I googled Anne Marie Silverton, found a website with an email address and contacted her last year trying to chase down the exact notes of this study.....I didn't get a reply so I wonder if this study was actually done?

Yes I know what are you talking about. I ahve seen this study on the net few years ago, it went into the details, not just this what was said in the link I posted. I cant for the life of me find this study.

[Erny]

Ruthless .... ask him to provide you with a link and specific direction to the relevant piece of legislation which states that the USE of pinch collars is prohibited in NSW.

[ruthless]

I just got this from Dogs NSW. It seems that no one knows anything!

---

Ruth i have looked in the Cruelty to Animals act but i cannott find any

reference to these collars i have emailed the rspca for information so

that you will get the right advice, if you can be patience a little

longer.

Liason Officer

Dogs NSW

---

It'll be interesting to see what they come back with!

When I have all the facts, I'll get back in touch with the guy from the council and try and educate him! I'm flabbergasted that no one can answer such a simple question.

[Paganman]

Sorry if Im thick but what is a prong collar, it does sound bad. Does it have spikes that stick in the dog, if it does I think that would be cruel.

[MonElite]

Liason Officer

Dogs NSW

he owns a dobe

[MolassesLass]

Sorry if Im thick but what is a prong collar, it does sound bad. Does it have spikes that stick in the dog, if it does I think that would be cruel.

It has blunt metal spines that ALL apply pressure to the dogs neck at once. It is NOT designed to "poke" the dog and cause pain.

[MonElite]

I think that would be cruel.

Christians thought that pagans are cruel and that was their reasons for crusades

What you THINK not what you KNOW. A brick can also be cruel if you throw it at a dog.........

Edited April 24, 2007 by myszka

[Paganman]

Thank you for the explanation as I said it sounds bad if you don't know what it is. myszka the crusades were directed against muslims not pagans but I take your point LOL.

Sorry I was not trying to be critical its just that I had never heard of these collars, once again thank you. I am sure if all you expert trainers say that they are ok then they are, i'm sorry if I sounded critical in any way as I didn't mean to, I am just ignorant of some things.

[Lablover]

Thank you for the explanation as I said it sounds bad if you don't know what it is. myszka the crusades were directed against muslims not pagans but I take your point LOL.

Sorry I was not trying to be critical its just that I had never heard of these collars, once again thank you. I am sure if all you expert trainers say that they are ok then they are, i'm sorry if I sounded critical in any way as I didn't mean to, I am just ignorant of some things.

No need to apologise. Any tool or implement can be used wrongly. As long as conditioning, fairness (and this normally takes experience) with good timing and consistency, and change of required behaviour results. Correction (in its various forms) is sometimes warranted. The problem I have, is not many people are fair to their dogs.

Ruthless, do you think your dog needs a prong, to be "trained"? I ask this question, not as an insult, but ........simply interested.

[DagBoy]

When I started at our obedience club (as an almost complete novice) they were always suggesting the halti rather than the check chain I had on Ebony, but they did not pressure me. MrsD has a lot of experience and helped me improve my timing so as to make it an effective training aid. I am still not the best and tend to err on the side of caution and be far too soft (i.e. she can get away with anything :rolleyes: ). This means my progress through the classes is talking longer than it might, but I don't really care - I just like spending time with Ebony and achieving something.

One of the main factors that helped me decide to keep with the check chain was looking at the equipement used by the people in the club who were in the trialling classes.

I do not know what their opinion would be of a prong collar, but I suspect they would rather not see it on the dog at club night. Not an issue as I do not have one.

We have used an e-collar before - it was used at home to deter specific behaviours we were trying to prevent, including some behaviour that could have led to injury. As with any equipment, used correcty it is not cruel.

For the OP - I think the way you were treated is shocking. It would have been simple enough to take you aside and have a little chat about the club's views.

Cheers,

DagBoy

[MonElite]

Ruthless, do you think your dog needs a prong, to be "trained"?

- this comment

I do some private training with Steve K9 occasionally.

made me think that ruthless got professional advice on what collar to use for the dog.

Edited April 24, 2007 by myszka

[Lablover]

Ruthless, do you think your dog needs a prong, to be "trained"?

- this comment

I do some private training with Steve K9 occasionally.

made me think that ruthless got professional advice on what collar to use for the dog.

Fair enough, but I had to ask :rolleyes:. A prong collar seems, to me, and I am more than happy to be um.......corrected, that the tool may be not necessary, especially as the dog has been further educated.

[MonElite]

A prong collar seems, to me, and I am more than happy to be um.......corrected, that the tool may be not necessary, especially as the dog has been further educated.

ruthless speak in another thread that they dog still pulls on lead

[ruthless]

I finally received a reply from the RSPCA... make what you will of it...

---

Dear Ruth,

There is nothing specific in the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act or

Regulations in NSW that relates to the use of pronged or pinch collars.

However, the RSPCA does not recommend the use of such a collar. The use

of the collar, or placement of such a collar on an animal, could result

in pain being inflicted on the animal resulting in an act of cruelty

being committed. As a consequence of a breach of the Prevention of

Cruelty to Animals Act the matter may proceed to prosecution.

I have included the relevant Sections of the Act for you to refer to.

Note that the definition of Pain in the Act includes suffering and

distress.

I hope I have been of assistance to you. If you need any further

information please contact me.

Regards

Inspector xxxxx xxxxxxxxxx

Metropolitan Team Leader

RSPCANSW

Definitions:

(2) For the purposes of this Act, a reference to an act of

cruelty committed upon an animal includes a reference to any act or

omission as a consequence of which the animal is unreasonably,

unnecessarily or unjustifiably:

(a) beaten, kicked, killed, wounded, pinioned, mutilated, maimed,

abused,

tormented, tortured, terrified or infuriated,

(b) over-loaded, over-worked, over-driven, over-ridden or over-used,

© exposed to excessive heat or excessive cold, or

(d) inflicted with pain.

(2A) For the purposes of subsection (2) (a), the pinioning of

a bird

is not an act of cruelty if it is carried out in the manner

prescribed

by the regulations.

(3) For the purposes of this Act, a person commits an act of

aggravated cruelty upon an animal if the person commits an act of

cruelty upon the animal or (being the person in charge of the

animal)

contravenes section 5 (3) in a way which results in:

(a) the death, deformity or serious disablement of the animal, or

(b) the animal being so severely injured, so diseased or

in

such a physical condition that it is cruel to keep it alive.

Part 2 Offences

Section 5 Cruelty to animals

(1) A person shall not commit an act of cruelty upon an

animal.

(2) A person in charge of an animal shall not authorise the

commission of an act of cruelty upon the animal.

(3) A person in charge of an animal shall not fail at any

time:

(a) to exercise reasonable care, control or supervision of an

animal

to prevent the commission of an act of cruelty upon the animal,

(b) where pain is being inflicted upon the animal, to take such

reasonable

steps as are necessary to alleviate the pain, or

© where it is necessary for the animal to be provided with veterinary

treatment, whether or not over a period of time, to provide it with

that treatment.

Maximum penalty: 250 penalty units in the case of a corporation and 50

penalty units or imprisonment for 6 months, or both, in the case of an

individual.

6 Aggravated cruelty to animals

(1) A person shall not commit an act of aggravated cruelty

upon an

animal.

Maximum penalty: 1,000 penalty units in the case of a corporation and

200 penalty units or imprisonment for 2 years, or both, in the case of

an individual.

(2) In any proceedings for an offence against subsection

(1), the

court before which the proceedings are being taken may:

(a) where it is not satisfied that the person accused of the

offence

is guilty of the offence, and

(b) where it is satisfied that that person is guilty of an offence

against

section 5 (1), convict that person of an offence against section 5

(1).

[MonElite]

I think Ill print it and will carry it in my back pocket ruthless

Than again maybe not, I might receive 250 penatly units for tormenting my dogs doing their nails

[Kavik]

Doesn't tell you much does it Except that there is no legislation specifically on pinch collars. So they are not banned I think what they are saying is that if they can prove that your use of the pinch collar is causing an offence (pain on the animal ;) ) that you could be prosecuted. But to me it looks like someone would have to dob you in.