Humiliated At Dog Training

[Griffo]

hey ruth, i am so sorry you had that experience, I have had the same experience about a year ago.They insisted I used a check collar as prongs were illegal in NSW (what a load of crap). Needless to say i walked out and never when back again. If they are that stupid and close minded then there is no way i want them anywhere near my dog.

They are NOT illegal in NSW, this discussion has been had many times before, the RSPCA would like people to believe they are tho. They are way more humane than check collars and there is NO WAY i would ever use a check collar on my dog ever again. Good on you for standing up for yourself. You make sure you keep using the method that works for you and your dog. Stuff what those bastards at training said.

ETA:

You have had a really bad run in the last few days with idiots and your doggies, havent you ruthless. First the bike episode and now this. You poor thing...they say bad things come in threes...one more to go? :cool: You must be feeling very disheartened at the moment.

Edited April 22, 2007 by Rachelle

[Arya]

Ruthless, your post made me so angry at those IGNORANT trainers. It really is such ignorance and makes my blood boil!!! I am SO sorry this happened to you. I am a total advocate of the prong collar. I train and instruct at a non-vca club here in Vic and the reaction to the collar would be the same. But, nobody touches my dog or her collar so I have made a leather cover for it and what they can't see they can't get on their high horse about. It makes me angry that I've had to do this even. I have seen quite recently someone use a regular check chain on a dog that actually cut the dog's neck. The neck was bleeding after five or six hard checks. And that was all I could see... what about damage to the spine? You couldn't do this with a regular prong collar if you tried, just because of the way it is designed.

I would NEVER go back to that club if I were you after being abused like that.

Erny, I am in total agreement with you about head collars. I only recommend them in certain circumstances. And good on you for your work to get the prong collar issue back on the table legislation-wise. I am an author so though I couldn't do much, if you want stuff proof-read or any help just PM me :cool:

Cheers

[Erny]

I am an author so though I couldn't do much, if you want stuff proof-read or any help just PM me :cool:

Thanks Arya ...... I am sure to take you up on that offer. I am simply accumulating documentaries, as well as testimonials/attestations from those who have had experience with the prong (and the difference it made to the dog) at this stage. THEN I will need to get my head into how to start off with the submission. Usually, once I get 'rolling' I'm ok.

I don't want to make the submission so much focussed on the damage a check chain can do if used improperly etc. etc. - in Victoria that's pretty much all we are left with that has effect with some dogs. And admittedly, a check chain used wisely and properly CAN work well with many dogs - admittedly not all. I don't want the govt to view the submission with the only result being that these too are banned, although I wouldn't care about that too much so long as they reverse the ban on prongs as well. But that's a risk I want to avoid or at least minimise.

Once I have my head into gear and know how I wish to go about this, I will most probably call for people to email me with their situation/circumstances and advise their thoughts on the prong and how it helped their dog.

[ish]

I used a prong on my dog secretly at training for about 3 weeks - the difference in her was so amazing that all the instructors asked what I'd been doing differently. I made the mistake of telling a trainer who I respected that the difference was the prong, and I was told not to use it at training anymore - despite it being the turning point for her. I know they're illegal in Vic, but if its being used appropriately and getting results - and no one had noticed it, how hard it is to turn a blind eye?

Luckily for me, she'd already clicked that I was the leader, and the occasional use of it at home is enough to keep her going well. She won her last trial :cool:

Took a few weeks for me to decide if I wanted to continue training at the club, but theres not many options around here so I did go back.

I laugh at the intructors who I hear telling people how to overcome their leadership and pulling dramas with check chains and haltis - I tell people straight out now that I use a prong and it made all the difference to my dog and pity the people who screw their noses up and call it cruel before trying it.

Goodluck with your dog ruthless

[stephenb]

I have seen seen prong collars brought to our club and advice given on their use but they are not allowed to be used during club training sessions.

I would not use one on my staff, not because I have any aversion to them but because she would probably injure herself. She tried to jump up onto a park bench one day when I wasn't looking and was flipped into a backwards summersault in mid air when she reached the end of the lead. She had a check chain on and wasn't fazed a bit, just got up and kept walking. :cool:

[♪♫LMBC♫♪]

How rude and ignorant. I went to a training class once with my sister's dogs, where the trainer insisted on not using food rewards. We were supposed to physically put the dogs in the position we wated, and say the command (ie say sit as we force the dog into a sit). We were then supposed to verbally praise the dog.

This may work for some, but my sister's dogs are mostly motivated by food. The forcing them didn't work. Also, try forcing a stubborn male dingo into a drop position. I had to keep one hand on the leash, and she told me to pull his legs out with my free hand. Didn't work, so she acted all superior and came over and did it for me (mind you, she had a spare hand to keep his butt down) and says "see, its not hard".

He would also bark a lot during class (he likes the sound of his own voice I think) so she told me when he barks to hold his mouth closed with my free hand. he did not like this at all, and he got to the point of knowing when my hand was coming towards him, and he would snap at me and give a warning growl. When I explained to her why I didn't think her technique worked for this particular dog, she said "oh you just need to stop being scared of him" Um...ok. She then proceeded to demonstrate (on her little JRT) that when he acts aggressively I should physically force him into a submissive position like another dog would do. i tried to explain that, given his size and high level of dominance, I thought this was stupid and dangerous, she rolled her eyes. No comment, just rolled her eyes. Stupid woman.

Every training method doesn't work for every dog.

And for the record, the RSPCA don't know squat about dog training.

[Akitaowner]

i wasnt too sure about turning up with one at our little club on the CC NSW but when checked (coz you cant see it on my guys) i said i had a martingale and a prong on - no probs actually all the trainers there have either got one or used one so all good

i tend to use/attach the martingale during play before and after 'work' and just clip the prong when she wont behave at heeling etc. im in the process of taking her off it anyway.....

Sorry you had such a bad experience - ive also been to clubs that frowned upon check chains - but i told them i knew how to use it and would continue to do so (they didnt ask me to leave!)

ive also had a trainer at another big club tell me i got 'that type of dog' for particular reasons - implying i wanted my boy (when he was 12 weeks old) for protection :cool:

i mean, some people, where to these 'volunteers' get off telling me what breed i can have - she got an earful when i told her i had been waiting the best part of 4 yrs for him.....

people that dont understand dogs and breeds shouldnt be allowed to comment ....well in my world!!!

[MonElite]

All this only brings one thought to my mind. Why dont we open our own club? I ahve sugested this before but there were not enough people interested.

So there you go, Im offering this again. Anyone in this time around?

[ruthless]

hey ruth, i am so sorry you had that experience, I have had the same experience about a year ago.They insisted I used a check collar as prongs were illegal in NSW (what a load of crap). Needless to say i walked out and never when back again. If they are that stupid and close minded then there is no way i want them anywhere near my dog.

They are NOT illegal in NSW, this discussion has been had many times before, the RSPCA would like people to believe they are tho. They are way more humane than check collars and there is NO WAY i would ever use a check collar on my dog ever again. Good on you for standing up for yourself. You make sure you keep using the method that works for you and your dog. Stuff what those bastards at training said.

ETA:

You have had a really bad run in the last few days with idiots and your doggies, havent you ruthless. First the bike episode and now this. You poor thing...they say bad things come in threes...one more to go? You must be feeling very disheartened at the moment.

Thanks Rachelle. I actually found your thread when I did a search on Google. Your experience was all too similar. Must be happening all the time.

The bike episode happened about a month ago, so I'm not feeling too downtrodden about that anymore! And, since reading all these replies, I'm actually not too bothered about what happened yesterday either. Screw them :cool:

[ruthless]

All this only brings one thought to my mind. Why dont we open our own club? I ahve sugested this before but there were not enough people interested.

So there you go, Im offering this again. Anyone in this time around?

I'm in! Maybe this needs a separate thread Myszka?

[B-Q]

thast pretty terrible you got treated like that :cool:

i understand why some people don't like prong/choke collars but their not bad if you know how to use them correctly.

but i don't so i don't use them. simple as that.

i don't see the reason for people to be so rude really. you'll get a better reaction out of people if your nice about it. god!

[MonElite]

ruthless is it this study you were looking for?

http://www.cobankopegi.com/prong.html#AStudy

[ruthless]

ruthless is it this study you were looking for?

http://www.cobankopegi.com/prong.html#AStudy

That's the one...cheers!

[cassie]

Hey Ruthless, sorry to hear of your experience, I had one similar not so long ago.

Like you, I sourced my prong from a reputable importer who has a permit, and I was taught how to use it and how NOT to use it. I'd done my research and knew they were not illegal in my state, and that there was really nothing wrong with them, providing you knew how to use them (as with ANY training tool). Zephyr and I and our new friend (prong! ) returned to the training school we had previously quit, due to the fact that he was too strong and jumpy and exciteable and way too hard for me to control on a check chain. We had to sign up all over again, and pay our annual fee. Our training equipment was checked (while I held my breath!) but we were given the all-clear. Great I thought, I can use my prong here without fear of being told off!

We continued through the Beginners classes, which Zephyr passed with flying colours, and made it into level 1. One day, our level 1 instructor couldn't make it, so the president of the club actually instructed us instead. He went round to everyone, again checking their equipment, and when he got to me he just stopped and looked at me in disgust, and asked why I was using such a cruel and inhumane collar! I asked, if they weren't allowed, why the hell wasn't I told this upon signing up and paying my fee? Well, long story short, I got into a huge argument with him in front of everyone, and was practically reduced to tears! I knew I was right and was doing nothing wrong but because he was making me so angry and frustrated, all the facts and evidence I know in my mind just escaped me and all I could say was "They're not cruel, they're not illegal" but I had no "real" case. Anyway he eventually asked me to leave and said next class I should bring him on a check chain. I said yeah no worries but don't expect me to be able to control him!

Luckily next class Zephyr actually wasn't too bad, like someone else said, I think he knows now that I am boss and so he does SORT OF obey me still on the check chain, not nearly as well as on the prong mind you! So anyway at this next class I came armed with my evidence, pages and pages printed out from the net about why prong collars are NOT evil torturous tools! I gave them to the president and asked him to please read them and get back to me with his thoughts, yeah well that was over a month ago, I'm still waiting! Like you, I didn't want to change his mind necessarily, but just allow him to see that they are not what a lot of people think they are.

Sorry for long post

[sas]

I spoke to the RSPCA a while ago, it's a really grey area for them, they don't have any solid legals in regards to a prong collar in NSW.

But don't expect to use it at the majority of dog training clubs, they simply don't have the education in training tools required to be open minded and they are governed by larger bodies who say what you can and can not use.

[Poodle wrangler]

I've been busted at a club for using a pinch collar and got the same reaction - they threatened to call the RSPCA on me!

It's a shame you were both treated that way when you're making the effort to come to training.

I'm sure that's where they find all the horrible, irresponsible, neglectful owners- Making the effort and taking the time to train their dogs

[Rom]

I've been busted at a club for using a pinch collar and got the same reaction - they threatened to call the RSPCA on me!

These days I'd probably feel comfortable telling those that threatened to report me to go ahead. The RSPCA would have to be able to prove a case of cruelty in order to take any action and I can't see how they could do it unless the tool was being used in an abusive way....the same as with any other training tool.

I note that in the RSPCA training material from Qld they say something like :"We don't use prongs/check chains because they don't suit our style of training" (Thats not exactly the wording because I don't have the paper work with me at the moment) But I remember noting at the time that they selected their wording very carefully to avoid using the word 'cruel'. I suspect that the Hugh Worth/RSPCA vs Innotek fiasco has something to do with that.

Read about it here.

In any case, since being cruel to animals is illegal, and if somebody accuses you of being cruel because of the training equipment you use, wouldn't you have grounds to defend yourself? I mean, isn't that like slander/libel? I wonder if training clubs can legally enforce this? Wouldn't they have to be able to prove that the tool is cruel....not just say that in their opinion it is without any proof? Cruelty is the only reason that they use and if that can be shown to be untrue, then what reason do they have?.

ruthless is it this study you were looking for?

http://www.cobankopegi.com/prong.html#AStudy

They say in that article that the info from the study comes from an Anne Marie Silverton seminar. I googled Anne Marie Silverton, found a website with an email address and contacted her last year trying to chase down the exact notes of this study.....I didn't get a reply so I wonder if this study was actually done?

I understand that in certain parts of the world, all police and military dogs are autopsied after they die regardless of the cause of death, and apparently it is from the results of these autopsies that police and military handlers prefer prongs over some other collars....but I can't find any info on that either. I am really eager to see what Denis comes up with

[Erny]

Read about it here.

Rom .... the link you gave seems only to come up with a page of law references. Have heard of this story/event, but would be interested in the full read, if you have the link for it.

[Rom]

Hi Erny :D

When you open the link, keep scrolling down. Its quite a long page once it has finished loading and they have left large blank areas. It does get down to the details of the case.

In short HW makes some untrue claims about the e-collar (apparently even presents false evidence in court). Court awards Innotek $50k from HW and $100k from RSPCA. Court also awards HW $20k or $30k from Innotek because they apparently said something naughty about him back

ETA: Thats my memory of it anyway....haven't read through it for about 6 months

Edited April 23, 2007 by Rom

[k9phoenix]

How rude!! Ive had a similar thing happen with a member of the general public whilst walking a dog who was wearing one.

Even agility, where I got in trouble for putting my foot on the lead once when my dog was in a drop allows you to bring dogs on martingales. I have been to several training clubs and all have allowed martingales. Some may not allow even check chains though!

Ha, I was taught that method also - and got in trouble for using it!!!!