Humiliated At Dog Training

[ruthless]

I just got home from a rather humiliating experience! I brought Chopper to dog training at Centennial Park. After you fill out the forms you have your equipment inspected. I had him wearing his flat collar and prong. I was told I couldn’t train with one of those and how it was disgusting and cruel. She then called all the other trainers over to show them what a horrible person I am! I walked away but one of the trainers came running after me and convinced me to stay and try the check chain. I told her that I accept that they don’t want me to use my prong in class, but the way it was handled was degrading and made out that I was a bad owner. I left his collars on a table during class. Afterwards, when I went to pick them up I was approached by another man and told they were illegal in NSW. I told him they weren’t and he said he’s a judge and he knows that they are. He called over another man to back him up and I told them that they’re not illegal and I bought it from a registered supplier and I’ve been trained in how to use it and why I chose it over a check chain or a halti, but they were completely self righteous and refused to listen. I eventually just said that I don’t accept what they’re saying as true and if I come back next week with proof, that I expect an apology.

Am I right? They are legal in NSW aren’t they? Does anyone know where I could find information online? [steve K9's on holidays!]

Also, I'd like to supply them with proof that they're less damaging to the dogs neck than the check chain or Halti. Does anyone have those links handy?

I'm happy to not use a prong collar in class, as they're their rules, but I'm not happy to be treated like scum by these people. Can anyone suggest an alternative dog training class that's as cheap and not too far away from Kingsford?

Edited May 1, 2007 by ruthless

[Kavik]

You do have to be careful of where you use a prong collar - I don't think any club affiliated with DogsNSW will allow you to use one, and you will get the same treatment elsewhere for using one.

I don't think you will be able to change their minds, and I think it is written in their COE or somewhere else that they will not allow the use of pinch collars.

I've been busted at a club for using a pinch collar and got the same reaction - they threatened to call the RSPCA on me!

I know of a few clubs that allow the use of pinch collars, I will tell you via PM if you like, but they are not DogsNSW affiliated.

If you want to continue at that club, your best bet is to use different equipment while you are there, I guess either a martingale or a check chain.

[WreckitWhippet]

Find a club that is not ANKC affiliated and train with them, I'm sure there are plenty of private trainers out there.

Edited April 22, 2007 by Warley

[ruthless]

You do have to be careful of where you use a prong collar - I don't think any club affiliated with DogsNSW will allow you to use one, and you will get the same treatment elsewhere for using one.

I don't think you will be able to change their minds, and I think it is written in their COE or somewhere else that they will not allow the use of pinch collars.

I don't necessarily want to change their minds, I just want them to get their facts straight before they go persecuting people.

I've been busted at a club for using a pinch collar and got the same reaction - they threatened to call the RSPCA on me!

That's awful. What ignorant people.

I know of a few clubs that allow the use of pinch collars, I will tell you via PM if you like, but they are not DogsNSW affiliated.

That'd be good, thanks

If you want to continue at that club, your best bet is to use different equipment while you are there, I guess either a martingale or a check chain.

I really don't have issue with the saying I'm not to turn up to class with Chopper wearing it, it was the total attack on my character that really upset me. I'm happy to abide by their rules, but maybe it's not the right club for me and I should look for an alternative.

Still can't find any information on legality. Anyone?

Edited April 22, 2007 by ruthless

[ruthless]

I just checked their website, and there's no mention in the rules that prong collars aren't allowed.

[ruthless]

Find a club that is not ANKC affiliated and train with them, I'm sure there are plenty of private trainers out there.

Will do, thanks. I do some private training with Steve K9 occasionally, but I wanted Chopper to do a class so he'll get to socialise with other dogs in a safe environment. I had no idea people had such stong opinions on the issue. Prongs are almost de riguer within the DOL commmunity that it really shocked me to experience such a negative reaction.

[Kavik]

Have PM'ed you

[ruthless]

Jeez, if the RSPCA had their way we'd all be using flat collars, martingales or harnesses! Apparently all dogs are the same and can be trained using the same equipment...

http://blog1.rspcasa.asn.au/2007/01/22/dog...s-we-dont-like/

http://blog1.rspcasa.asn.au/2007/03/26/dog...ces-we-do-like/

[Erny]

Haven't read all of it but note that the RSPCA speak of Head collars as being positive - but that the person must know how to correctly fit and use it.

Then it says of prong collars "If used roughly, they could cause injury to the dog ... "

Funny how they don't use the same style of wording for the Head Collar. Obviously they are batting for one team over the other, rather than being fair and open-minded.

IMO, Head Collars can be a continual aversive to a dog - an aversive that does not cease until it is taken off the dog, not just when it ceases undesirable behaviour.

This is not to suggest that they don't have in certain circumstances a "place" in our training tool-box.

Ruthless - Naturally it is your choice as to whether you wish to return to the dog school you speak of. Must admit that their short-sightedness and lack of knowledge on which they base their bias would concern me ....... What other application are their bias' likely to influence?

IMO, a prong is kinder than a check-chain.

YOU should not feel ashamed. But THEY should - simply because they don't know what they are saying. The prong might well be prohibited from use within their club (and whether we think those reasons are right or wrong is irrelevant - it is their privilege), but that does not render the equipment illegal.

Except in Victoria.

But I do intend to try to change some victorian bureaucratic minds ......... it will be a long haul though.

[Denis Carthy]

Ruthless

Also, I'd like to supply them with proof that they're less damaging to the dogs neck than the check chain or Halti. Does anyone have those links handy?

Denis

I have lots of solid stuff Ruthless - we have had these radical extremists here in UK and they are now very much on the run, I'll get some stuff posted on here in a few hours, its early AM and have stuff to do right now.

Edited April 22, 2007 by Denis Carthy

[ruthless]

Thanks Erny and Denis. Having done quite a bit of Googling this afternoon, I found that I'm not the first DOLer to experience this kind of reaction. It's a real shame that such a popular place for dog training is so misinformed and closed minded. I've composed a lengthy email to send them, but I'll wait and see if I still want to send it after the anger has passed!

I found this in another thread:

The RNSWCC or Dogs NSW as they are now known has recently amended its regulations Part II- Show as follows:

© - Under no circumstances is a dog permitted to wear electric, spike, prong, pinch, or similar collars at any exhibition or at any other event conducted by an affiliate including training sessions.

(d) - An affiliate shall not permit advertising of collars of the type referred to in Regulation 12.4© of this part in any club publication.

---

The RCNSW Committee investigated the matter of prong collars in 2004 and received advice that the importation of the collars is illegal, but having them is not illegal [except in Victoria], even those made in Australia, but using them in a particular way could be subject to charges under the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act. Advice from the Animal Welfare League is that: “If a person chooses to use a prong collar on a dog and the dog either lunges forward or the handler pulls the lead attached to the collar it would constitute an act of cruelty as defined under the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act. It should also be noted that these collars are a prohibited import into Australia under Federal Legislation but there is no stipulation that they cannot be made in Australia.” We have also received similar advice from the RSPCA: “Prong collars are not illegal in NSW. Having said this, if an owner was to pull on the collar and cause injury to the dog because of the prongs, there would be cause to prosecute under the Prevention of Cruelty Act.”

---

These are quite good articles I found too:

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/prong.html

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/headhalters.html

---

I haven't decided whether to go back or not yet. To be honest with you, if it had said on their website that prongs were forbidden I wouldn't have shown up with one and there wouldn't have been an issue. I wonder what their stance on martingales is?!!!

[Erny]

I have lots of solid stuff Ruthless - we have had these radical extremists here in UK and they are now very much on the run, I'll get some stuff posted on here in a few hours, its early AM and have stuff to do right now.

Hi Denis

Would you mind sending a CC to me too? I am accumulating documentation to assist for when I compile a submission for re-introduction of allowing the prong to be used here in Victoria - at least on a restricted basis (similar to the e-collar).

Thanks in advance.

Erny

[Kavik]

Martingales will be fine

Even agility, where I got in trouble for putting my foot on the lead once when my dog was in a drop allows you to bring dogs on martingales. I have been to several training clubs and all have allowed martingales. Some may not allow even check chains though!

[MonElite]

The RCNSW Committee investigated the matter of prong collars in 2004 and received advice that the importation of the collars is illegal, but having them is not illegal [except in Victoria], even those made in Australia, but using them in a particular way could be subject to charges under the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act. It should also be noted that these collars are a prohibited import into Australia under Federal Legislation but there is no stipulation that they cannot be made in Australia.”

That is not correct at all.

Importation is illegal WITHOUT A PERMIT. Its legal if someone has a permit, and there are people around that have permits.

From the customs website - resticted imports

The Australian Government controls the import of certain goods into Australia. The controls either take the form of:

*an absolute prohibition, which means that you are not allowed to import the goods in any circumstances, or

*a restriction, where you need to have written permission in order to import the goods.

The following information broadly outlines what goods are prohibited or restricted, where you can obtain more information about the control and, in the case of restricted goods, the mailing address or e-mail address to use to apply for permission to import

Dog collars - electronic and protrusion (restricted import)

Description:

Dog collars designed to cause an electric shock, or dog collars designed to puncture or bruise an animal's skin.

(my note - )

Administered by:

Minister for Justice and Customs

More information:

Customs Information and Support Centre

Telephone: 1300 363 263

E-mail: [email protected]

Address:

Inquiries should be addressed to:

National Manager

Trade Policy and Regulation Branch

Australian Customs Service

5 Constitution Avenue

CANBERRA CITY ACT 2600

E-mail: [email protected]

this was taken from http://www.customs.gov.au/site/page.cfm?u=4369

I will also add that customs will not issue a list of those holding permits. Word of moth works well though

Edited April 22, 2007 by myszka

[squirt80]

Ruthless, I am so sorry you had such a bad experience at cenntenial park!! , we also go there. I have only been going for 3 months but we have had nothing but postive helpful experiences, I am so shocked that you were treated that way!, I would definatly be writing an email or letter objecting to thier behaviour they should not be treating anyone like that . But do try and go again the club has some great trainers and the people who attend the classes are genrally friendly and welcoming. Hope to see you and Chopper there next weekend, you can't miss us Rogue is the only Bulldog , I don't think there are any other obdience clubs in the Eastern suburbs.

Edited April 22, 2007 by squirt80

[ruthless]

Aw thanks for that. I have to say, I had a few people come up to me afterwards to say they saw what happened and they were glad I decided to stay. So, that was nice. I think I may have seen Rogue today. I'm surprised you missed Chopper, he was making quite a racket! Maybe see you next weekend

[squirt80]

I probably did see chopper I usally check out all the staffy type dogs cause i love them, think they will be our next pup, wE are usally there with my sis and her dog who is a white Husky we kind of stand out . My Sis has been going there for about 2 years and she loves it. There is one woman who I have found to be very narky, I have never had her as a trainer but she has made a few reamarks about Rogue before she is possible the one who caused such a fuss in the 1st place. Don't let them spoil it for you cause it is lots of fun, I would take back what evidence you find a shove it in thier face next week and make them apologise. I will look out for you next week.

[Barking Mad-Equity 4 Pet Owners]

As a 'new' dog owner, (but a qualified trainer and educator, just not of DOGS) I had an experience of 'shaming' at a dog school. I pointed out that the 'club' was a shall-remain-nameless dog TRAINING Club, not just a club. Emphasis TRAINING.

I went to LEARN from people that had a lot more experience than me with dogs. Making mistakes from ignorance or inexperience is a valuable part of learning; shaming is not useful for any human training in my experience. I think the spirit of inquiry to find out where thinking or beliefs that MAY be not the best for the dog or society came from is a much better way to share understanding and knowledge.

I'm sorry to hear about this. I don't understand the collar issue, but dog schools are very important places that should welcome all sorts of people and be able to deal with all sorts of views. I have experienced a bit of the 'club' view instead of the 'education' view. Guess we have to live with the differences but I shutter to think how many people turn away from dog training CLUBS because they feel shamed in one way or another.

[MonElite]

I was nearly thrown out from a (shall remin to be nameless) club for having a prong. I wouldnt mention I own one in yet another.

[Rom]

Hi Denis,

Could you please add me to your CC list too?

I was already a member of a club when I saw K9 about some of my training issues with my dog and he suggested a prong. However, I already knew my clubs stance on the prong when I got mine, so decided that I would not put my dog in class until her issues were sorted. I still had to be at the club on training nights though because I also volunteered there, so I used to go early and put my girl through her paces before club hours started. Training nights are held at a public field. At the first meeting of this year the officer in charge of training and the president of the club basically said that I could not train my dog at the field, even outside of club hours, if I was using the prong.

Funny thing is that the only methods that they could suggest for dealing with my dogs issues involved harsh corrections that really adversly affected the spirit of my dog....she seemed to just sink in on herself...not go submissive but more just lose spark and interest. I refused to do it. I quite like her spirit the way it is and the prong doesn't affect that.

The RSPCA will only get involved with any training equipment issue if there is an injury and I've got to tell you that with the way my girl was lunging on lead she would have been more likely to sustain an injury on a flat collar than she is on the prong. In fact, she had put her back out at 12 months of age and the injury was continually being aggravated by her lunging on lead until we got the prong.

BTW, because of the issues at dog club, I also reported myself for using a prong collar to both the CEO and the local cruelty inspector for the RSPCA up here last November...they haven't come looking for me yet

Whilst they are not illegal up here in Qld, I'd love to be part of any action that will help them be a more widely understood and accepted training tool :cool: