ruthless Posted April 18, 2007 Share Posted April 18, 2007 Every day I get up at 6am to walk Chopper and Ivan for an hour. Every day I get angry and frustrated. I've tried a prong collar for the last 6+ months. It's definitely better than nothing, but it has never had the result on him that it did on Ivan and Angel. He's not out in front dragging me along, but the leash is never loose. I realise that he's pulling to get in front of Ivan. I have to walk them together, so I try having one on either side of me and give them very little leash. I noticed he was getting pock marks on his neck from the prong cause he walks in such a way that it's always digging in to him, so I've changed over to a Halti. It's equally ineffective. I've heard people saying that you should stop and turn around everytime they pull, but my walk is for my exercise as much as it is for theirs, so I haven't tried that. I've been doing the whole Cesar Milan method of not letting them out the door before you, making them come to you to have their collar and leash put on and making them walk beside you for all but the last 5mins of the walk. Ivan's fine. Chopper's a bloody nightmare. I get so frustrated, that the calm assertive energy isn't happening at all My heart's broken!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted April 18, 2007 Share Posted April 18, 2007 Personally, I would walk them separately until you have them both walking nicely. Also, if you do this, even if you use the method of turning around and going the other way when Chopper pulls, you will still get exercise because you are doing twice the walking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted April 18, 2007 Author Share Posted April 18, 2007 I may make excuses, but I am going to take all suggestions on board, I swear The reason I walk them together is cause I only have an hour available and as it is we get home from our walk and Chopper still has energy to spend another half an hour tearing around the garden with Angel, and then he still gets bored enough to rip up his blanket or rope or rubber toy, or whatever else I leave with him when we're at work. I'm worried that if he gets less exercise he'll be even more destructive [if that's possible!]. Another reason I walk them together is cause when I take Chopper out first and then bring him home and then bring Ivan out, he'll spend the whole time I'm gone crying and whinging. Bear in mind it's very early, the neighbours wouldn't want to have to put up with that I'm sure!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gillian Posted April 18, 2007 Share Posted April 18, 2007 Hi ya, We had massive troubles with our dog pulling on the lead (and I might mention here that we have a Great Dane). A really good trainer here on DOL recomended the prong collar and when we got one, we tried to walk our dog with it and well it didnt help much at all. We then took Harley for a couple of training classes (to another good trainer) and guess what - Harley is brilliant now on his lead. My point being - get a trainer to show you how to work the prong collar correctly - there's a good chance you're not using it correctly. - Gillian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted April 18, 2007 Share Posted April 18, 2007 I've tried a prong collar for the last 6+ months. It's definitely better than nothing ... but the leash is never loose. It's not just about the equipment you put on your dog, it's how you use it and when that counts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted April 18, 2007 Share Posted April 18, 2007 (edited) Edited Edited April 18, 2007 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted April 18, 2007 Share Posted April 18, 2007 I've heard people saying that you should stop and turn around everytime they pull, but my walk is for my exercise as much as it is for theirs, so I haven't tried that. Ruthless......great name by the way. Be Ruthless, train one on one. Or as others have suggested, find a good trainer for one on one training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedStafford Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 I've been doing the whole Cesar Milan method of not letting them out the door before you, making them come to you to have their collar and leash put on and making them walk beside you for all but the last 5mins of the walk. Ivan's fine. Chopper's a bloody nightmare. I get so frustrated, that the calm assertive energy isn't happening at all My heart's broken!! I'm still reading cesars way - but part of his method is he walks / runs dogs follow... he's going to need some training by himself... if it were me i'd get his head beside my leg start walking, as soon as his bum is beside your leg stop, wait for the lead to go slack, get him to sit move to the starting position and start again... as soon as he's doing the right thing for more that 2 steps, heaps of praise as soon as he does it wrong, stop & wait for the slack lead to come back... Just my opinion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 (edited) I've heard people saying that you should stop and turn around everytime they pull, but my walk is for my exercise as much as it is for theirs, so I haven't tried that. Believe me, your personal exercise won't be lacking if you follow good instruction (being shown/personal coaching is far different and IMO a bigger learning curve, than simply reading). Simultaneously your dogs will learn more efficiently and as a result, it will be fairer to them. Ultimately, your walks will soon end up in being an enjoyable event for all concerned - you AND your dogs. Edited April 19, 2007 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 Another reason I walk them together is cause when I take Chopper out first and then bring him home and then bring Ivan out, he'll spend the whole time I'm gone crying and whinging. Bear in mind it's very early, the neighbours wouldn't want to have to put up with that I'm sure!! I understand we don't live in an ideal world ..... BUT, what would happen if one day Ivan can't be with Chopper? Independance training is valuable and sometimes critical. It is something we tend not to work on until we HAVE to have it, by which stage it's too late to work on incrementally. Also, is it possible that Chopper is making you work around him, rather than the other way around? I note that you're doing what you think are the right things to do leadership wise, but I wonder if you're really following the "leadership" thing through sufficiently enough for your dogs to believe in it. A "one-on-one" session with a good trainer/behaviourist will I believe help you enormously. This person would prescribe a program for you to follow. It may not be easy at first as you will need to take steps to alter your dogs' current perseption of you as well as previously learnt behaviours, but if you do the work now rather than later it will take less time than it otherwise would to achieve a harmony that will have you wondering why you didn't address this sooner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 The point of pinch collars and check chains is to provide a correction. Chopper should not have the opportunity to GET to a tight lead. Walk him alone, stick the other dog in a crate inside with a bone (skip meals for the day) and cover it with a blanket. The dog will feel safe but distracted. When Chopper goes to walk out in front of you, you are meant to provide a correction. Not let him strain, the prong collar works by tightening and pinching the skin around the neck, hence a short sharp correction is required. When he walks out, before the leash is tight POP and about turn, encourage him to follow you. Every time he goes to walk out in front *POP* and about turn, encouraging him in a nice friendly voice to catch up with you. Skip his meals, give him food rewards for when he catches up. You are simply not using the equipment properly - the fact your dog has MARKS from a prong collar means you dont know how to use it. I'm not being rude, but go to K9 force or someone with experience before you create a dog so desensitised to any corrections around its neck. You need to realise that the more the dog gets away with pulling under pressure from equipment the less a correction will mean to him when he finally gets one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 I'm with Nekhbet on this one. You definitely aren't using the prong collar correctly and if this is the case and you're getting pulling and marks, don't swap to a check chain or the choking effect will be worse and you'll have even less control. You need to be shown how to use a prong/pinch collar, or a check chain, or a halti correctly from the sounds of things. Hey, don't worry, everyone needs to be shown how to use the equipment properly initially. I would definitely go and see if you can book in with K9 force to sort this equipment problem out. Then, hey, you are the dogs' leader so too bad if they don't like being walked separately. I'd walk each dog for half the distance/time and walk them separately. It's better than one longer nightmare walk where the pulling dog learns nothing. Really, it will be much better for all concerned and allow you to concentrate on training the difficult dog to walk nicely. Hang in there but go get some tuition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted April 19, 2007 Author Share Posted April 19, 2007 i do correct him, he doesn't care, he returns to beside me immediately, he know's that's where he's supposed to be, and seconds later he's pulling to get in front again. i've heard it said many times that it's about consistency, which i guess is one area where i've gone wrong. i'll try all these things. i know deep down that he'll be heaps better on his own, so i'll try and make it work. or hey, maybe hubby can haul ass out of bed to walk ivan!!! thanks for the advice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 ruthless I contacted Steve from K9 Force and did loose leash walking as a long distance learning package Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akitaowner Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 my boy was a bit of a puller - not really bad but annoyingly so when out walking. When we got our baby girl i didnt want her to be the same and knew i needed to sort him out quickly. Ruthless - where did you get your prong? i think they are restricted in NSW unless you are a trainer and are shown how to use it properly? I went and got a prong from K9 force and have made sure that i stuck tot the program given and no more pulling - my girl is already off it and walking nicely on a martingale and my boy is getting there but he needs a reminder still. you will never train 2 dogs together.... you need to reduce their sep anxiety between each other - my boy is 3yrs older than my girl she will eventually be left on her own i dont want her distressed in that situation - again K9 force taught me how to ensure they are both happy when left alone. any dog will learn to pull in any 'tool' if allowed - they modify their behaviour to get around the problem and i believe now chopper has worked out that the prong has its limits you may have furtehr issues. For as long as the dog doesnt know what the max pinch could be - you have the upper hand....when they realise they can beat it you have a dog that pulls harder as it has been conditioned to do.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keshwar Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 I see two issues here. You need to train Chooper to walk on the lead and you need to exercise yourself and your dogs. Currently you are trying to do both at the same time and getting frustrated cos you're not achieving either goal. What I would do is separate the two requirements. Spend 5-10 minutes with Chopper practicing loose leash walking. Then take both dogs for a exercise walk. The method I use to get loose leash walking is to become a tree when the dog pulls. When the dog pulls you stand still, don't say anything don't do anything until the dog looks at you and loosens the lead. At this point there is lots of praise and we move forward again, become a tree again etc, etc. Doing this initially won't get you far but if you are persistent he will get the idea very quickly that nothing happens when he is pulling on the lead. The really hard part of using this method is the staying still and quiet part. You will want to encourage him to come back to you. DON'T! He has to learn to come back to you himself and it is only when he does that he gets praise and to move forward. When he is walking on a loose lead lots of praise and rewards. As far as the exercise goes either walk the dogs separately or for now put up with Chopper pulling until he gets used to the loose lead walking. While doing this make sure you don't reward his pulling. When I walk my two boys I ignore Buzz if he is pulling and will praise Faxon when he is walking nicely - which fortunately he does most of the time. This will take a lot of patience on your part but if you persist you will get there. Bear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Q Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 buster does the same thing. but even whe he's by himself. if you want to walk for excercise, walk alone for now. or with ivan. then, everyday. train at home with chopper. thats what i'm doing wiht buster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted April 20, 2007 Author Share Posted April 20, 2007 I noticed this morning that he's not as bad as I make him out to be. I want him to walk right beside me [as that's what Cesar said to do!], so I keep the leash really short and correct him if it goes taught. Today however, I let him have the whole length of the leash, while keeping Ivan very close to my other side, and he only went half a body length in front of my leg for most of the walk. If he "forgot" for a minute and went any further I stopped and he walked back to beside me and sat down. Maybe I'm setting him up for failure by walking them together, so I'll try them seperately and see how we go. Thanks for all your replies! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keshwar Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 I noticed this morning that he's not as bad as I make him out to be. I want him to walk right beside me [as that's what Cesar said to do!], so I keep the leash really short and correct him if it goes taught. Today however, I let him have the whole length of the leash, while keeping Ivan very close to my other side, and he only went half a body length in front of my leg for most of the walk. If he "forgot" for a minute and went any further I stopped and he walked back to beside me and sat down. Maybe I'm setting him up for failure by walking them together, so I'll try them seperately and see how we go. Thanks for all your replies! Do you need him to be right beside you? Remember you are trying to exercise your dogs and you not train them to heel. I allow my guys free range to the length of their leads. They can be at the end of the lead but not pulling and I am happy. I usually hold the leads in one finger so I know when they start to pull. :rolleyes: For me there is a difference between pulling at the end of the lead and being at the end of the lead. I try to make walking fun for all involved. Bear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shazbot Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 I will be trying the tree thing I think! Sargent just wont walk where I want him, he wants to be just that bit too far torward. He also want to set the pace and does not like to walk slowly. Yep. Gonna be a tree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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