Food Possessive Golden Pup

[Guest Willow]

I agree with faolmor (by the way, from what you said it sounds like you are a follower of the "Amichien Bonding" technique developed by Jan Fennell....would I be right???)

In a wild wolf pack, each dog would eat in order of rank, and then walk away to signal it had finished, and that it was ok for the next subordinate to eat. Even an alpha would not take food off a junior, each dog would wait its turn and then be allowed to eat in peace.

I agree with other advice given that you should seek help from an experienced behaviourist. It's not just a case of being able to take food off a pup, there are underlying leadership issues here, and if you can treat the cause, you will eliminate the problems. Just practising taking a pigs ear away won't fix the fact the dog beleieves it is leader.

I don't want to sound like I'm preaching....I've been in the same boat as you Laffi....it's heartbreaking to think the pup you love is capable of biting/aggression. I would really like to recommend a couple of books you may find interesting reading, even if you don't agree with all the contenet...

"The Dog listener" and "The Practical Dog Listener" both by Jan Fennell.

Good luck, and think positive, this is a fixable problem, please don't give up!!!!

[blacklabrador]

I don't think it requires continual confiscation of food. I don't take food off my dogs as a rule, but I know I can if I need to. I know I can totally trust them and that's how it needs to be.

[Guest Willow]

But why do you ever need to take food off your dog??? I can understand taking dangerous things away, or things they shouldn't play with (you know, shoes etc ) but if you give a meal to a dog, it should be left in peace to eat it.....why bother giving it in the first place if you are going to go on a power trip & drag it off the dog???? There are other, more subtle, and very powerful ways to assert leadership & win respect without having to get into a power struggle.

[Staff'n'Toller]

YAYYYY THANKYOU FAOLMOR For taking the time to write what I would have written. ;)

Mel.

[blacklabrador]

I don't go on "power trips" with my dogs and take food from them unecessarily. Get a grip.

Sometimes I need to remove a bone from my dog because I need to have them inside (for some unexpected reason) and they aren't allowed to chew bones on the carpet. Is that an acceptable example for you?

The puppy I have now growled at me once and I solved the problem immediately. I have had no further issues since that day. One day soon he will be a big stud dog. I have no intention of having power struggles with him then. I am the boss from day one.

I don't use confiscating food as a way of feeling powerful or even of reminding my dogs that I am their boss. I agree, there are other ways of doing that. The point I am making is that I feel safe to do it if I have to. Nobody should ever feel intimidated by their dog.

Edited April 15, 2007 by blacklabrador

[Guest Willow]

Excuse me? "Get a grip"??? I think you need to learn the difference between being the boss, and simply being a bully. There is no need to be so defensive. A true leader remains calm and in control at all times. There is no need for anger.

Please think on these things.

[Cosmolo]

What about a dog that is chewing some other kind of food- such as a bird etc- that you need to remove? Problems with a dogs meal can carry over to other high value items- food, toys or otherwise. I have never removed food from my dogs but i know i can if i have to and thats what i think is important. I would usually use a leave or out command (depending on which one of my dogs it is) and any kind of correction would be for the non response to a known command- but its not an issue for my 4 dogs.

We use the example of a wolf pack and it was suggested that an alpha doesn't remove food from a subordinate. However, the point is- if they needed to for whatever reason, there would be no issue and the food would be relinquished- if it wasn't there would be a fight that the alpha would win. I totally agree with teaching the dog that you will add to their bowl, replace one food with a better food etc etc- BUT i also know that any kind of aggression would not be acceptable in my household.

I am a little confused about the OP's need to have others remove food from the pup though? Is there a practical situation where you feel this would be important/ necesary? And i would not leave the pup in a strange environment to try to teach it not to resource guard- your likely to make the prolem worse through fear and uncertainty.

[blacklabrador]

Excuse me? "Get a grip"??? I think you need to learn the difference between being the boss, and simply being a bully. There is no need to be so defensive. A true leader remains calm and in control at all times. There is no need for anger.

Please think on these things.

I am not a bully at all. I have no need to "bully" because my status in the pack is clear. My dogs get away with far too much but they ultimately know when business is serious. There is no mistaking who is the boss around here. Who said anything about anger?

To use the word "power trip" and to suggest that I don't leave my dogs to eat in peace but "drag" their food away is offensive and condescending to me. It is also offensive to suggest that I am a bully to my dogs because I don't feel intimidated taking food from them if the situation requires it. So yeah, get a grip.

Edited to add: my dogs obey the "give" command. They are retrievers and trained to give up whatever they have in their mouths. Is it considered bullying in the field? A retreived pigeon is potentially food isn't it?

Edited April 15, 2007 by blacklabrador

[Guest Willow]

You don't have to agree with me, sweetie, everyone here is entitled to their opinion.....you shouldn't be offended by a bit of debating....I was actually referring to your previous post when you talked about not tolerating rubbish from puppies....you came across as being a bully. That may not have been your intention, but that's how you came across.

If you put your opinions out there, they are open to being challenged or disagreed with, so there is no point being offended. Develop a thicker skin, and enjoy the dabate. It's good for you, it clears the air!!!!!

[blacklabrador]

I'm never offended by debating, only the comments of people when they are derogatory towards me, sweetie. Disagree with my opinions all you like.

I don't tolerate rubbish from tiny pups who are trying exert authority over me. I don't think anybody should allow a puppy to gain a false sense of leadership, even for a minute.

You assumed that I was a bully because of a single statement that I made.. and then you told me that I need to learn not to be a bully. I need to learn not to be something that you've assumed that I am?

What's that statement about assuming making an ass out of... oh shit I can't remember.

[blacklabrador]

Puppy just walked into the room with a box of matches in his mouth. I called him over and said "give" and praised him when he released them. He was happy enough to come over even though he probably knew I'd take it from him, but he loves the praise.

Just an example of a situation when an item needs to be removed from a dogs mouth. It's not just about food.

(yes yes I know I'm neglectful for having matches where he could reach them )

[Guest Willow]

go have a glass of wine before you pop something ;)

[blacklabrador]

go have a glass of wine before you pop something ;)

Having a nice stubby of Stones Alcoholic Ginger Beer actually. I don't have to get angry to tell you that you're out of line.

[Cosmolo]

Willow- i don't know if its your intention but teh tone of your posts is quite condascending. Information is received much more easily when people don't feel insulted.

[Faolmor]

okay before we descend into total chaos...I believe we were trying to help the OP with her problem?

I think it should be pointed out that there is always a difference between taking food away from a dog's bowl, and taking something off them that you would like back or that they should not have (eg dead bird in retrieving trials, sock, toy, washing off the line etc).

The food bowl is not neutral ground...it is territory. Yes, as an owner, you do need to be completely safe around any territory in your home, and this includes your dog's dinner bowl. However, the original point in this topic was that the OP had been told that the best way to teach her puppy to be submissive around its bowl was to have its food forcibly taken away. This had resulted in the puppy getting the wrong signals and acting inappropriately.

I have already stated by opinions on why the technique she was shown was wrong, and detrimental to the trust that needs to be developed between dog and owner.

There are two things that the puppy needs to be taught - one, is that her owner is NEVER going to break her trust by taking away what she thinks is her last meal on earth, so there's no reason to get grumpy (the puppy, I mean!), and two, to give up something on command.

With a puppy - or in fact any dog that has developed a food aggression problem - the two issues MUST be taught separately, so as not to confuse the dog. They must also be thought of as separate issues. One, food guarding. The other, teaching the "give" command.

Eventually, yes, you could use one to ASK (not command) the dog to give up something it would like to eat. But you cannot do this until the dog will trust that you are the provider of its food, and not the one there to take its food away. There is no reason to ever confuse a dog like this, and it is a shame for the OP that her puppy was placed in a position where it learned the hard way not to always trust the hand that feeds it.

That is the primary damage that needs to be undone. The "give" command can wait.

[blacklabrador]

Thanks Faolmor.

I can see the difference between the two. I guess for my dogs they become the same command - the same principle.

I would certainly treat a dog that had established food aggression issues very differently, but for a young pup who is pushing the boundary for the first time I would do again what I did. To add food after a dog growled wouldn't be the right thing and I think it's important for the disapproval to be displayed immediately.

[Guest Willow]

Faolmor, you are absolutely right...there *is* a difference, that's what I was getting at, but you managed to put it more eloquently than me.

Blacklabrador, my apologies, perhaps words written don't look like they sound in both our heads when we think of them!!! no offence meant......I think you would make a wonderful debating partner and would love to crack a stubby of stones with you :D

Cosmolo, don't worry hon, we were just giving each other a bit of stick

[Staff'n'Toller]

To add food after a dog growled wouldn't be the right thing and I think it's important for the disapproval to be displayed immediately.

When you are fixing a food/resource guarding problem you don't add food after they have growled. You get in long before the dog feels the need to growl, and change their perception of the situation.

Mel.

[blacklabrador]

Hey Mrs Hardtoplease... :D

Grab some popcorn and a drink. Add your 2c worth - this isn't just a spectator sport.

[Guest Willow]

:D

*ouch*

*takes favourite toy into a corner & sulks*