How Open Minded Are You?

[Alpha]

Given that I intially did not set out with a plan except to do some work with my dog be it yard or obed or agility, once it was suggested I give it away as a lost cause...the decision was made for me. I never entertained the idea of NOT trailling or doing agility we were going to do it and did. Second dog I decided she was going to do it all too, whatever she excelled at (and she excelled and still does at it all) Again it would not have bothered me to modify/adapt/re learn new or diverse methods to train any dog...I'd never give up and could never re home. It s a square we work in but its called a ring...that's enough of an oddity to tell anyone that anything can work if you want it to.

Edited April 2, 2007 by Alpha

[jesomil]

I have a question though - what if you have a dog that is not initially what you expected - perhaps not suited to what you want, not the right temperament, training isn't going as you wish - would you ever reach a point where you would 'rehome' the dog or give up to an extent?

I would rehome a showdog or a sheepdog if it wasnt up to standard as i personally think there is no point collecting dogs if they are not exactly what you are after. Its best to find them a good home and go on with a dog that more suits your criteria. Conformation or instinct is not something that can be changed.

It is completely different with a pet dog and I probably wouldnt rehome an obedience dog as it would be more to do with the training rather than the dog.

[leopuppy04]

Further to that- i am interested to know what kind of network we as dog trainers have with each other in different locations. In keeping an open mind, do we bounce ideas off other trainers regularly or even have that option available if in an isolated area? Is it not possible to refer on in some places for logistical reasons?(Obviously DOL is an example of one place where we can do that)

My network is only starting to build now. I like these threads that you raise Cosmolo coz it always keeps you thinking and 'on the ball' to a degree .... I like the idea of training days so that you can learn other methods off others as well..... being able to take advice from others IMO helps you find other ideas and avenues in dog training. Email lists and DOL are great for building up a wide network IMO.

LP- i don't quite understand what you mean (sorry brain is sleeping today hence my lack of clarity in my own posts embarrass.gif ) Are we talking about our own dog? Or clients dog? Or both? Have all training avenues been exhausted?

Haha - I know the brain sleeping feeling . I was interested in both instances - either you buying a dog for a specific purpose eg: agility/obedience and their temperament didn't fit, or perhaps a client buying for the same reason.... Training avenue's - maybe, maybe not - I really want to know to what extent people would go before 'giving' up on their dog - ie: would they exhaust all avenues of training with the risk of living with a type of dog you hadn't initially planned on, or would they put it into the 'too hard basket' and search for a better home? I don't think one is right or wrong, all of us have different expectations, but i'm just curious!

[Alpha]

An adgae my grandfather always uses when farmers ( often younger ones ) complain about non working/cattleshy /whatever dogs " A poor tradesman always blames his tools"

Often faults can be attibuted to nothing more than bad luck or a glitch in the genetic pool...such things are proof of the falliablity of life, But animals bred to undertake a task who cannot/do not do so to the level of expectation of their owners/handlers...well, back to the drawing board for the owner /handler for a course in DOGGIES 101

[jesomil]

A poor tradesman always blames his tools"

Often faults can be attibuted to nothing more than bad luck or a glitch in the genetic pool...such things are proof of the falliablity of life, But animals bred to undertake a task who cannot/do not do so to the level of expectation of their owners/handlers...well, back to the drawing board for the owner /handler for a course in DOGGIES 101

Obviously i am referring to rehoming a dog because of lack of genetic capability not lack of ability on the trainers part.

There are some particularly bad handlers that go through heaps of dogs and blame the dogs for their lack of ability rather than looking at their training techniques. There are many people out there that do this and I am certainly not referring to these types.

I want dogs who genetically can be the top of what they do. If i was to have a dog that was incapable of that genetically then i would have to find another to go on with. I have never had to rehome a dog for this reason myself but i know others who have and i think what they did was right.

Eg. You want to compete in cattle trials and get a dog who turns out unsuitable for the task. What do you do? Do you leave the cattle trials and perhaps aim for something else? Do you tie that dog up and start with another more genetically suitable one or do you find a home where the dog fits exactly with what another person wants which leaves you to concentrate on your new dog?

I think it is totally different for an obedience dog though as it pretty much has everything to do with the trainers ability whether or not they succeed.

[Kelpie-i]

An adgae my grandfather always uses when farmers ( often younger ones ) complain about non working/cattleshy /whatever dogs " A poor tradesman always blames his tools"

Alpha, not sure if you've been around many farmers, but it's not so much the younger ones but rather the older ones who tend to act this way. Most of the younger farmers seem to be more inclined to have their working dogs trained and/or train them themselves. Unfortunately, it's mostly the older farmers that have neither the time nor the inclination to want to train their working dogs or to even re-train a problem dog. I once met an older gentleman farmer at Casterton who told us about the "reject pit" he had on his property which was nearly full of dogs which did not perform. The saddest part of this story was that he was at Casterton to buy 2 new dogs to replace the ones he had previously shot.

Jesomil, not sure but is this what you're trying to say...?

Obedience trialling or any form of trialling is a "sport" and as such, you do not derive an income or a living from this. It is purely done for one's own pleasure or status seeking. So to be rid of a dog that doesn't work in the obedience ring, whether it be due to training faults or dog's genetics is totally unfair.

What about the dog who's job it is to contribute to the income of a family that just doesn't work out for the reason based on genetics ie. wrong temperament for the job etc? What do you do with this dog? Would you rehome a dog with strong working instinct as a family pet??

[jesomil]

With a working dog, i think that if you do your research and get a dog bred for what you need then if it doesnt work out, it is more likely to be the training of it rather than the dog, so you would look at getting lessons or having the dog trained before rehoming it.

So to be rid of a dog that doesn't work in the obedience ring, whether it be due to training faults or dog's genetics is totally unfair.

I agree. For an obedience dog, it will be the trainers fault that the dog is not performing, not the dogs. Any dog can do obedience but not everydog can do more specialised sports that require some form of instinct such as stock work, retrieving, racing etc.

If i were to get a pup purely for working sheep and it turned out by some freak of nature that it didnt work at all, i would find someone that wanted an obedience or agility dog and give it to them or hang on to it till a suitable home was found. I obviously do not need the dogs to work, i do it purely for a hobby but i still want to be able to continue my hobby with dogs that enjoy it too.

What about the dog who's job it is to contribute to the income of a family that just doesn't work out for the reason based on genetics ie. wrong temperament for the job etc? What do you do with this dog? Would you rehome a dog with strong working instinct as a family pet??

No, if it has strong working instinct, then i would look at what i was doing wrong or find someone who had work for the dog that was more suitable for the skills of this particular dog.

[m-j]

I agree. For an obedience dog, it will be the trainers fault that the dog is not performing, not the dogs. Any dog can do obedience but not everydog can do more specialised sports that require some form of instinct such as stock work, retrieving, racing etc.

I also agree, I am in the process of rehoming a dog that doesn't have the genetic instinct to do the work I aquired this dog for (search and rescue) People could die waiting for this dog to find them, she doesn't have the drive required to keep looking if the job was tough. She is going to a home where she will be used to visit aged care facilities her temp is very suitable for this type of work and she will love it.

Like you say obedience is a different story, as all obedience is, is natural behaviours that all dogs will do put on cue and performed in a certain way. This is where I would have to say I'm not open minded as a positive trainer I wouldn't want to cross back to using adversives to get the dog to do this as it is something I want to do, not need to. I'm not saying that people who are prepared to do this are wrong/bad (so long as the adversive isn't severe, which could possibly be detrimental in times of stress anyway) just not what I would do.

cheers

M-J

[Alpha]

An adgae my grandfather always uses when farmers ( often younger ones ) complain about non working/cattleshy /whatever dogs " A poor tradesman always blames his tools"

Alpha, not sure if you've been around many farmers, but it's not so much the younger ones but rather the older ones who tend to act this way. Most of the younger farmers seem to be more inclined to have their working dogs trained and/or train them themselves. Unfortunately, it's mostly the older farmers that have neither the time nor the inclination to want to train their working dogs or to even re-train a problem dog. I once met an older gentleman farmer at Casterton who told us about the "reject pit" he had on his property which was nearly full of dogs which did not perform. The saddest part of this story was that he was at Casterton to buy 2 new dogs to replace the ones he had previously shot.

Jesomil, not sure but is this what you're trying to say...?

Obedience trialling or any form of trialling is a "sport" and as such, you do not derive an income or a living from this. It is purely done for one's own pleasure or status seeking. So to be rid of a dog that doesn't work in the obedience ring, whether it be due to training faults or dog's genetics is totally unfair.

What about the dog who's job it is to contribute to the income of a family that just doesn't work out for the reason based on genetics ie. wrong temperament for the job etc? What do you do with this dog? Would you rehome a dog with strong working instinct as a family pet??

FYI Kelpie-i, farm born and bred, Gippsland if you must know, family are all farmers/primary industry: dairy, horse trainers, asparagus, potatoes, beef, sheep. My grandfather came from old Irish farming stock, studied vet sci and became a vet and Fellow at Melb Uni. I was putting forward on observation made by an very asute and knowledgable person in the area. You speak of one instance in relation to how many farmers and dogs?? My comment was a observation made be a person whom has more animal knowledge and accumulated resources than any one here, I think. Also more years on the clock I'd reckon

I think most dogs are adaptable to work in another area of the "contibute to family income" scheme. A paddock dog can well be a better yard dog or vicea versa, some very wooosey dogs become perfect dogs for close contact/truck/guard work on market trips. Its a matter of thinking outside the square, I think.

[Kelpie-i]

Alpha, Apologies if I came accross somewhat blunt and I don't doubt for a minute that your grandfather has more knowledge about life on the farm than most. Your post stated "often the younger ones", obviously implying that it is the younger farmers who are less tolerant of their non-performing working dogs. Having been involved in many aspects of working dog training with farmers and their dogs, I have found that it is often the younger farmers who come out to learn a thing or two about working/training their dogs, rather than the older (or should I say more mature) farmers. I wasn't brought up on a farm but am fortunate enought that my line of work now brings me in contact with many farmers and their dogs therefore my comments are made based on conversation, involvement and observation over the last few years.

I think most dogs are adaptable to work in another area of the "contibute to family income" scheme. A paddock dog can well be a better yard dog or vicea versa, some very wooosey dogs become perfect dogs for close contact/truck/guard work on market trips. Its a matter of thinking outside the square, I think.

I agree with this Alpha, however there are certainly those dogs who just don't cut it as "all rounders". Some people buy dogs with the "all rounder" tag thinking that the dog will perform in paddocks, yards and truck work etc, only to get a dog who's forte is paddock work only and is generally scattered with close truck and/or yard work or vice versa. In which case, the farmer then needs to go out and find a dog who can cover the rest of the work. Those that own good all rounders are extremely lucky. Some people are not as lucky and are faced with some hard decisions.

Sorry to the OP for hijacking this thread......us "sheep dog" people just can't help ourselves.

Edited April 3, 2007 by Kelpie-i

[Alpha]

Kelpie-i no apology needed.It s a forum, exchange of ideas,opinions and views. That's what I LUV about this place. Sorry to OP for highjack from topic at hand

[Cosmolo]

LP- if the dog wasn't suitable for what i wanted them to do i would keep them. I would exhaust every training avenue if it was something i was so deperate for them to do. I would hope that my dog selection skills would be good enough to prevent this from happening BUT if it did, i couldn't give up one of my dogs and they would just become a pet.

[leopuppy04]

LP- if the dog wasn't suitable for what i wanted them to do i would keep them. I would exhaust every training avenue if it was something i was so deperate for them to do. I would hope that my dog selection skills would be good enough to prevent this from happening BUT if it did, i couldn't give up one of my dogs and they would just become a pet.

Me too Cosmo - I think that there is always 'something else' we could try that *does* suit them

[Cosmolo]

I agree- I can think of a sport that all of my dogs would like- even if its something that i don't have a particular interest in. If i was that desperate for them to do 'something' i would find something they could do or did like OR modify my training techniques if appropriate!

[JulesP]

I have been thinking about this topic alot (scary) and came to the conclusion that I would probably use any method if i had to. I hate the thought of the e collars but if I had to use one to say stop my dog chasing stock and so save its life then I would probably use one. I would hate it and i would probably cry after but I would do it.

Love being nice to my doggies so go a more positve route but am not 100% convinced that it is working with the dogs real nature. If pup annoys my older dog she doesn't tend to click and treat him. :D It is a grrr and she drops him. So occasionally I have grrred and dropped him too (like when he attacked the old cat this week cause she tried to eat his food).

My doggies are pets first so I wouldn't get rid of them if they didn't match my competition desires.

[leopuppy04]

I have been thinking about this topic alot (scary) and came to the conclusion that I would probably use any method if i had to. I hate the thought of the e collars but if I had to use one to say stop my dog chasing stock and so save its life then I would probably use one. I would hate it and i would probably cry after but I would do it.

Love being nice to my doggies so go a more positve route but am not 100% convinced that it is working with the dogs real nature. If pup annoys my older dog she doesn't tend to click and treat him. It is a grrr and she drops him. So occasionally I have grrred and dropped him too (like when he attacked the old cat this week cause she tried to eat his food).

My doggies are pets first so I wouldn't get rid of them if they didn't match my competition desires.

LOL Jules - I agree with you - sometimes you have to be 'cruel to be kind' and if it your dogs life at risk then yep, someitmes we have to do things we don't like to do .

As for the positive stuff - again, I think it is important to stay positive when the dog is working with us, but for general manners, I don't see why a grrrowl would be wrong.... I look at it that way as I don't see Leo asking Kinta to sit and stay either ...... but for her to in essence 'understand' properly and do it willingly, for me, I prefer positive.

In a way, I guess that is why i'm not a 100% purist in positive training as I do believe there is a time and place where discipline is warranted. And lets face it, there are some dogs, like kids that *just need to be told* once and for all.... then they turn into perfect angels