How Open Minded Are You?

[Staranais]

I think I am very open minded to any aspect of training, I think it stems from a stubborn streak when I was told my ACD would NEVER enter a trail ring( red rag to a bull) I don't know if I'd have been so receptive to some of the methodologies I learnt/tried if he'd been non dog aggro,

Oh yes, that was exactly my experience! When I got my current dog (very dog aggressive, very confident, rather prey driven), it really frustrated me when I went to my training club and the trainers discouraged me from using anything except food treats & maybe a halti to control him, especially since these things clearly didn't have any real effect on his behaviour. His antisocial behaviour definately caused me to look outside the box and to explore methods that my first club considered unorthodox or even cruel (e.g - playing tug, using prey drive rewards, verbal corrections, pinch collar).

I sometimes think, if I had only ever owned non aggressive, less driven, less confident dogs, perhaps I too would look down on people that used drive or correctional methods, the way that the trainers at my first club did? I'm sure that's the reason that some trainers don't keep an open mind about using different techniques - because their method has worked at least somewhat for every dog they've trained so far, so they don't see why anyone would want to use anything different.

I should add that I don't train other people's dogs for a living, though I have helped out with a few shelter dogs and dogs belonging to friends/family, so I may not be Cosmolo's target audience for this thread.

[Erny]

Just want to add to my previous post something that I think is the obvious. That is, if the dog has shown fear to the tunnel I would first work to reduce that fear by working on something less intense. Eg. Going through a tyre. Only when it is comfortable with the tyre would I turn to working at the tunnel.

[wheres my rock]

i was going to say hoop nice and big and eaasy to move around then two hoops then move them a bit apart etc chuck somthing over them

[Cosmolo]

Getting back to the original topic, its interesting that everyone seems to have a different definition of open minded. My definition is to be open to any humane technique of training depending on the dog, situation and handler. Others definitions tend to be open minded within a certain style of training. Do you acknowledge that our preferred methods will not work for every dog?

[Erny]

Do you acknowledge that our preferred methods will not work for every dog?

Definately. And even if I have a 'preferred' method that has worked with every dog (that I have worked with) in a prescribed circumstance, I am very open-minded to the fact that I have not worked with EVERY dog and that there would remain the big possibility that I'd need to alter my tactics to suit.

Edited April 1, 2007 by Erny

[wheres my rock]

what erny said

[Sayreovi]

Do you acknowledge that our preferred methods will not work for every dog?

Yes, but i would start off with my preferred methods and then work downwards until i get too something that does actually work.

[leopuppy04]

Getting back to the original topic, its interesting that everyone seems to have a different definition of open minded. My definition is to be open to any humane technique of training depending on the dog, situation and handler. Others definitions tend to be open minded within a certain style of training. Do you acknowledge that our preferred methods will not work for every dog?

Absolutely - like you Cosmo - if I had a client come up to me and tell me that they were really not comfortable training using motivational methods and want to go back to using corrective methods coz they have used that for the past 20 years, quite successfuly, I wouldn't hesitate in allowing to train that way, nor would I a newbie who really didn't want to train using 'motivation' (by motivation i'm not meaning corrective trainers don't motivate the dogs, just using the 'names' given to types of training methods!).

Although I prefer one method, I still *do* see myself as open minded. I still agree that there is not one way to train a dog, or any dog for that matter. Even one method that may work on dog A may not work in 6mths time..... Like you said Cosmo - you'll be interested to see what I would do if Georgie was one of my dogs or a clients dogs - perhaps she would be one dog where my 'preferred' method wouldn't work.... i'm quite willing to exhaust other methods of training. As always - whatever works for the dog, which is why I would 'never' say I would 'never' use method x on a dog as invariably, there will come a time when you have to .

Each to their own though, I think it is safe to say that each of us have our own 'preferences' and would try and exhaust those methods 'first' before switching training styles to gain success. Doesn't mean one is right and wrong, but just what and how we prefer training as individuals

[jesomil]

How do people that only use one method have the experience to teach another method?

Eg. If you are into only positive motivational techniques and have used it with your dogs, how would you know how to use another method like corrections if you havent used it and dont really believe in it anyway?

I know there are people experienced in lots of methods here, but i wonder for those who say they are open minded but have never used anything else, how would you know how to utilise another method effectively.

Hope i am not confusing everyone and if this doesnt make sense, just ignore me

Edited to get rid of a word that jumped in in the wrong place.

Edited April 2, 2007 by jesomil

[Erny]

Each to their own though, I think it is safe to say that each of us have our own 'preferences' and would try and exhaust those methods 'first' before switching training styles to gain success. Doesn't mean one is right and wrong, but just what and how we prefer training as individuals

Agree, although there are circumstances based on the temperament of the dog where I have avoided a 'preferred' method altogether from the get-go. And for the same reason, even though a particular 'method' might be preferred by the owner, I will first discuss the pro's and con's if I don't believe that method is suitable.

[leopuppy04]

How do people that only use one method know have the experience to teach another method?

Eg. If you are into only positive motivational techniques and have used it with your dogs, how would you know how to use another method like corrections if you havent used it and dont really believe in it anyway?

I know there are people experienced in lots of methods here, but i wonder for those who say they are open minded but have never used anything else, how would you know how to utilise another method effectively.

Hope i am not confusing everyone and if this doesnt make sense, just ignore me

You're right Jesomil as if you have not been trained properly on how to use a clicker for example, you will never gain the same results as someone experienced with it and to a point affect the training of that particular job. I'll say it once and i'll say it 1 000 times ..... I think it is immensely important for ALL trainers to try all training methods regardless on their views on it. It is 'pointless' to be told that you can/can't do this because it is cruel or whatever. I may not be as experienced as a 'correction' trainer as I am a 'clicker' trainer (actually I don't think i'm an experienced trainer at all, but a dud ) but I know the mechanics behind 'correction' training and have used it before. I know how to use the tools correctly and appropriately so I think if and when I do need to use it i'll be able to use it adequately and appropriately. But if we are talking 'individual' dogs - I am sure if you came across a dog that you had to change your methods, there would be many trainers and mentors that you could turn to to help you out in terms of the training.....

In terms of answering your question - I hope I haven't confused YOU and that it makes sense

[Cosmolo]

Jesomil makes a great point as does Erny- i want to be able to assess a dog and choose the most appropriate technique to begin with as often as possible so that we don't go through a process of trial and error- which may happen if you always start with your preferred technique regardless and 'work your way down' through other techniques. This could prove both confusing and detrimental to the dog and owner.

[Sayreovi]

How do people that only use one method have the experience to teach another method?

Eg. If you are into only positive motivational techniques and have used it with your dogs, how would you know how to use another method like corrections if you havent used it and dont really believe in it anyway?

Just because someone is into one method more then others, doesnt mean that other methods havent been tested and trialled.

For example ive only found clicker training in the last 2 years. My older dog who is 4, was a pain in the arse a OTT type of dog and i was using ineffective methods (for him) because i didnt know alternatives like clicker. So if i see a dog that was like mine using the same methods, i would show them the difference a clicker can make to a dogs attitude

[Cosmolo]

Further to the discussion of preferences- If you had a dog come to you who did not suit your preferred training techniques and you haven't recently used the technique required- (for instance the dog requires an e collar and you have never used one or only done so a handful of times) would you refer on to someone else you know in the industry who is better equipped to teach using that technique?

[Erny]

I think the answer to that is fairly obvious . What's your angle, Cosmolo?

[Cosmolo]

Don't have an angle as such- just wanting to know if others refer on when they see a dog that doesn't suit their training style, or if they attempt to learn more about that training and carry it out themselves. There is no 'wrong' answer, just genuinely curious as to what others do in that situation if it arises.

[Alpha]

I think I am very open minded to any aspect of training, I think it stems from a stubborn streak when I was told my ACD would NEVER enter a trail ring( red rag to a bull) I don't know if I'd have been so receptive to some of the methodologies I learnt/tried if he'd been non dog aggro,

Oh yes, that was exactly my experience! When I got my current dog (very dog aggressive, very confident, rather prey driven), it really frustrated me when I went to my training club and the trainers discouraged me from using anything except food treats & maybe a halti to control him, especially since these things clearly didn't have any real effect on his behaviour. His antisocial behaviour definately caused me to look outside the box and to explore methods that my first club considered unorthodox or even cruel (e.g - playing tug, using prey drive rewards, verbal corrections, pinch collar).

I sometimes think, if I had only ever owned non aggressive, less driven, less confident dogs, perhaps I too would look down on people that used drive or correctional methods, the way that the trainers at my first club did? I'm sure that's the reason that some trainers don't keep an open mind about using different techniques - because their method has worked at least somewhat for every dog they've trained so far, so they don't see why anyone would want to use anything different.

I should add that I don't train other people's dogs for a living, though I have helped out with a few shelter dogs and dogs belonging to friends/family, so I may not be Cosmolo's target audience for this thread.

No, not the target audience or worthy ...

Nice to know that I'm not the only one who benefited personally as well as training wise from a dog that did not fit the perfect mold.

[leopuppy04]

Of course. If I am unsure about anything i'd rather ask someone with expertise and learn from them than to go in 'blind' and potentially make the situation worse.

I have a question though - what if you have a dog that is not initially what you expected - perhaps not suited to what you want, not the right temperament, training isn't going as you wish - would you ever reach a point where you would 'rehome' the dog or give up to an extent?

[Cosmolo]

Further to that- i am interested to know what kind of network we as dog trainers have with each other in different locations. In keeping an open mind, do we bounce ideas off other trainers regularly or even have that option available if in an isolated area? Is it not possible to refer on in some places for logistical reasons?(Obviously DOL is an example of one place where we can do that)

[Cosmolo]

LP- i don't quite understand what you mean (sorry brain is sleeping today hence my lack of clarity in my own posts ) Are we talking about our own dog? Or clients dog? Or both? Have all training avenues been exhausted?