leopuppy04 Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 There are so many varieties of how to teach heel nowadays. I taught Leo by simply stepping off and rewarding the right position. I would never do that again. It doesn't really help them understand what 'heel' is and it is such a complex exercise. It means that he looses it on the turns etc,etc,etc. With Kinta i'm planning on teaching position first, but a few times while LLW she has placed herself in perfect 'heel' position which I have clicked and rewarded. But i'm planning on teaching a stationary heel with the look up - glued to your leg- kay laurence positiong . I'll always be asking her to 'find' heel from a variety of positions, then only adding turns, then adding the movement. With Leo - 2nd time round, I refined heeling by C&T perfect position and throwing food away from me.... he'd come back and 'find' heel. This has helped his position and attention 100% - sometimes when I watch his video's i'm really proud of the position he offers, so I like this method. We went back to static turns to help that (and going back to it!). Just interested in other people's heeling techniques and how they feel about them - like/dislike Also - do you teach rear end awareness so that the dogs can zip there bum around for left turns etc - I find it makes the heeling much neater, but it doesn't help when your dog doesn't realise they have an Ass! LOL! I did end up teaching it eventually and it has helped immensely! Do you do left-about-turns or U turns? I do left about - I prefer them ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloss344 Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 It's been a while since I taught Bob to heel, but it was by moving off and praising for the correct position. Since learning about the static position I've gone back and retaught him the correct position. It's made a big difference, to the neatness of his sits, drops and stands when heeling. I like the idea of teaching the static position with focus before any movement. Heeling takes so much concentration by the handler and dog, it's a good idea for the dog to know the actual heel position before having to actually walk along. We are still working on rear end awareness. Bob's a stretch model and I think it takes a while for the message to get from his brain to his butt. How did you teach rear end awareness? I like the left about turn, but Bob's pretty good on both and great on the left turn too. He stays in close for those but tends to go a bit wide on the right turns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 Good question LP as i have been pondering Cosmo's off lead heeling performance of late. Initially i taught Cosmo to target my leg with her head in a stationary position. I would do this again as well as luring the dog when in motion. I now do alot of her finding the position from different places so that she truly understands the position and that the quickest way to get there is not always the same thing each time. To begin with i taught a formal recall which i wouldn't do again- i don't think it teaches the position it teaches that heel means go behind me on the right side and stop and sit at my left leg. So no matter where she was, even if just slightly out from heel, she would always want to go around to the right to 'find heel' again. I want heel to mean- find the heel position as quickly as possible. I do think i used too many corrections in proofing heel and as a result have some lagging (minimal but still there) when she is off lead. We will be combatting this by her prey/ toy reward being thrown out in front while she is heeling, releasing her as soon as we do so. I would rather deal with a surging dog than a lagging dog. Please forgive me for going a bit OT, but on the subject of finding different positions, does anyone do this with a 'come' command? I have started teaching Cosmo to find 'come' from a heel and 'close' (which is her command to be on the right) and i think it has improved her recall alot as she knows wherever she is that come means get to this EXACT position as quickly as you can. Why do we teach find heel but not find 'come'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 I've been doing find heel for a while, from both sides, and all around And we've been doing find come recently at home after an instructor suggested it after she watched Ed recall, she said no matter where he is, at any time, just tell him to come, if he is a metre in front, if he is behind me, if he is beside me etc I think find come is good and wish I had thought of doing it earlier Ed also is a lagger, so I might start throwing a ball in front to combat that. He finds heel perfectly it's when we move thats the problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted March 29, 2007 Author Share Posted March 29, 2007 Please forgive me for going a bit OT, but on the subject of finding different positions, does anyone do this with a 'come' command? I have started teaching Cosmo to find 'come' from a heel and 'close' (which is her command to be on the right) and i think it has improved her recall alot as she knows wherever she is that come means get to this EXACT position as quickly as you can. Why do we teach find heel but not find 'come'? LOL - yes I'd definately prefer a surging dog to a lagging one also - it's too hard to pep them up without 'babying' them (talking to them to encourage them forward). Likewise I also prefer a really exuberant, uncontrollable pup (read:Kinta!) to a quiet/laid back dog. It is easier to razz down than razz up - and dogs calm down as they get older -so I want them to maintian some enthusiasm . In regards to the 'come' question - no I haven't taught it - I never thought of it actually, but you do raise a good point. I guess because the 'front' is used on so many exercises, is it actually teaching them where 'come' is..... and if you use 'come' loosely (come on a walk being different to come in the ring), would it really be useful? Not saying you do Cosmo, but just throwing thoughts around ;). As for the targetting, I *think* this has helped Leo also with a more 'wrap around' heel - I only recently started teaching it, but if I tell him 'close' he will come into a lovely position.... I really feel his heeling has improved out of sight in the last 12 mths.... lots of work to get it right though, isn't it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 I taught Ed close, to get him to come in when he was a bit wide, but now I question it, heel should mean heel close, if he is wide he shouldn't need a different command to get him in, do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted March 29, 2007 Author Share Posted March 29, 2007 We are still working on rear end awareness. Bob's a stretch model and I think it takes a while for the message to get from his brain to his butt. How did you teach rear end awareness? Best thing i've done, albeit taking a while - i'm sure Leo would give Bob a run for his money. We did it purely by free shaping although you don't need too. It was fun to teach and our very first shaping exercise . Steps: *I got out a paving brick/ phone book and put it on the floor *I would C&T ANY interaction with the brick - looking at it, sniffing it, taking a step toward it. When I reward i'll try and throw the food as close to the paving brick as poss, to give a better chance of a 2nd reward. *Once he was looking at the brick, i'd wait him out and C&T any paw movements toward the brick. He eventually just 'offered' a paw on the brick. JACKPOT. * i'd keep doing this - this time throwing the food behind him so that he'd come and line straight back up with the brick. Slowly move to only clicking for 2 paws. * once reliable on getting 2 front paws on the brick- i'd throw the food slightly to the side (depends if your dog is a lefty or righty - but for obed throw food to the right (your right not the dogs!)). *if the dog understans that the click only comes for standing paws on, directly in line with you, they tend to come in, put paws on brick and move butt around. C&T & JACKPOT any rear end steps. *once he got the idea, i'd start standing up (I always shape sitting down) and every time he took a step, so did I . I'll go in the opposite direction as him so we would always stay in line. *once he understood that when I stepped, he moved his bum, I added in the word *step*. *gradually faded off the paving brick and now ask for a step and he'll swing right round into heel position (that was a fluke the first time he offered that!). LOL - wow that was long! I can show you if you like, if you are coming to the KCC day - Kinta is quite low in this (lazy trainer) and Leo has mastered it ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted March 29, 2007 Author Share Posted March 29, 2007 I taught Ed close, to get him to come in when he was a bit wide, but now I question it, heel should mean heel close, if he is wide he shouldn't need a different command to get him in, do you think? Yup - I initially only used 'close' because Leo already *knew* what heel meant and I didn't want to muck that up - i'll later 'fade out' "close". I don't use another word other than a firmer 'heel' if Leo is out wide. If he still doesn't listen, I stop walking and ignore him - you no pay attention to me, I no pay attention to you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 Cool, thats what I'd been thinking Almost completely OT, well it is a bit about heeling just not much! I got a run through last night by one of the guys at WP who is a judge lol It was good though, even though we never got a whole run through cos he kept stopping to show me things about heeling and my cruddy turns! So much of it is my own confidence Cosmolo god I laughed at your OH talking about panicing with which way to turn when it's called, one day I will figure out which way I'm going I'm sure! I just have to keep thinking Eddie is left, Eddie is left lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 In one round at a trial I used about 6 different commands for heel in the one pattern . As for turning the wrong way don't any of you do dogless heel practice - maybe something to put on your training plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 Yeah but my problem is I get dyslexic with left and right when put under pressure Like if we're in the car and I suddenly have to tell someone which way to turn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 (edited) Hey Shoey, That is why you need to be on auto pilot with your turns . ETA. Leopuppy do you want my response to this question or have you had enough of me preaching about what the those brilliant gurus of WA taught me ;) . Edited March 29, 2007 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 (edited) Yeah I need OH to call out lefts and rights to me til I do it without thinking I can't do it by myself cos I know which way I'm meant to go! lol Ness we want your answer too!!! Edited March 29, 2007 by shoemonster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 (edited) Yes, I had mine recorded so I could play it on the ipod . Edited March 29, 2007 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 LP, i never use come at any other time unless i want them to find the position. My informal recall is 'here', the dogs name or a whistle, all of which just mean come back and hang around me. Come means find that position right now. And i totally agree with SM- heel means be close and i don't think you should need another command such as close. This has similar thoughts to the use of stay and wait though- heel means heel close until i release you just as sit means sit and drop means drop. Lp, just to play devils advocate for a second- if Leo knew heel and you didn't want to mess it up- did he really 'know' heel and/ or was your criteria too lax?? Surely knowing heel is the dog being very close to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 What did you record it with? I need to do that I need to get something to play it on too though, hmmmm have to ask darling OH if I can get an ipod for dog training Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted March 29, 2007 Author Share Posted March 29, 2007 And i totally agree with SM- heel means be close and i don't think you should need another command such as close. This has similar thoughts to the use of stay and wait though- heel means heel close until i release you just as sit means sit and drop means drop. Yeah - i'm in agreement with that too. heel means heel..... when I'm heeling formally, i'll never use 'close' as I said - I used it to teach a new position - I has pretty much been faded out now... Lp, just to play devils advocate for a second- if Leo knew heel and you didn't want to mess it up- did he really 'know' heel and/ or was your criteria too lax?? Surely knowing heel is the dog being very close to you? Yep he knew heel and knew where to find it. But I decided to 'modify' it as such. I wanted to bring his 'heel' into a slightly different position - even closer and a little more of a wrap around - more the the UK standards of heeling.... I decided that his 'original' position, while still in heel was a little wider than what I wanted. So I decided to start the basics with the word 'close' so that I wouldn't mess up the command of heel or get him confused at all. When he understood the new position, I faded out 'close' and re-introduced heel..... does that make sense? cosmo i'm like you - 'here' or their name means just come back, "come" actually means a formal - but that doesn't mean I don't use it on a walk - I just expect a sit at the end . But nope, never thought of actually teaching the position... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 (edited) I love the UK style heelwork - such a shame its penalized here. Edited March 29, 2007 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted March 29, 2007 Author Share Posted March 29, 2007 I love the UK style heelwork - such a shame its penalized here. It isn't really - you can get fairly close to it... I have seen a few dogs in Vic with very Uk style heeling and no penalising - they do penalise the real good stuff though as apparently it is 'crowding' ;) - it looks so much NICER though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 (edited) Yeah it does doesn't it. I am going to work harder on a consistent position and if she happens to be really close great if she is a bit wider but holds a reliable position then that is good to. ETA. Was watching some crufts stuff this morning and OMG there fronts are to die for but again probably penalised under our standards. Edited March 29, 2007 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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