Running Contact Vs 2on 2off And Missing Obstacles

[Cosmolo]

Interested in those of you who do agility or are planning on starting as to whether you teach a running contact or 2o2o? Or something else? What do you consider to be the advantages and disadvantages of each? Do you think it varies dependng on the dog you've got? What problems have you encountered along the way? Would you do anything differently next time?

Also want to know what you do when your dog misses a contact, or misses a weaver- do you use a no reward mark? Give the reward anyway? Allow the dog to continue running the course? Repeat the exercise? Give a verbal correction? Or something else?

[Tassie]

I had unreliable contact performance with Kirra, and I've gone back to using a target placed on the ground off the end of the contact - I've tried to pair that with the verbal cue 'touch'. In training, she does a brief wait and then release, but in trials, it becomes effectively a running contact. I place the target/treat far enough off the contact end that it's effectively a one rear toe on - but not formally that. It's been working pretty well in trials, but I find I have to keep using a target/treat intermittently in training - usually getting someone else to place it there.

I should have prefaced this by saying I'm too lazy and inconsistent to train a formal 2o/2o or 1RTo - and I don't really like the look of them. My girl is fast, and I think she'd get frustrated with anything requiring a pronounced stop. On the other hand, I do need independent obstacle performance.

In training, if she misses a contact, she gets a verbal nrm, and gets to do it again a couple times to get it right. On course in a trial, I keep going, and make a mental note to up the training.

I've treated the weaves as a single obstacle, and in both training and in trials, I will take her back to the beginning to get it right. Although the rules allow you to put your dog back in where it popped, I don't - partly because she's fast and I wouldn't know, but also because of the 'single obstacle' philosophy.

[Vickie]

Interested in those of you who do agility or are planning on starting as to whether you teach a running contact or 2o2o? Or something else? What do you consider to be the advantages and disadvantages of each? Do you think it varies dependng on the dog you've got? What problems have you encountered along the way? Would you do anything differently next time?

In all honesty I think that the majority of people with "running" contacts have "untrained" contacts with a dog whose natural stride takes them over the contact zone. True running contacts take time to teach & involve muscle memory & stride regulation.

-I think the biggest issue people (including myself) have with contacts is the dog slowing down on descent before getting into position and I believe it is due to lack of true understanding about the position as well as placement of the reward. We have worked on this a lot & have improved heaps but still have some work to do.

-Another hard one is getting the position independent of handler position & again we are working through this with placement of reward.

-Another big one is good contacts at training but not in trials. I blew a number of places at trials for a while so we could hold our contacts for seconds...it was worth it. A missed contact in a trial would elicit exactly the same response from me as a missed one in training would.

ETA, I think the hardest part is the transition from foundation training to contacts as part of a course.

Also want to know what you do when your dog misses a contact, or misses a weaver- do you use a no reward mark? Give the reward anyway? Allow the dog to continue running the course? Repeat the exercise? Give a verbal correction? Or something else?

For us there is a consequence of missing a contact behaviour or breaking a start. I get my dog to stop & I go back & release when & where I am ready while she holds her position. I don't correct anything else on course but will

-wait her out

-make the exercise easier

-Fix my crappy handling (most common_

-then reward for correct performance

-then I make it harder, so I am sure that we have fixed it.

Edited March 26, 2007 by Vickie

[Kavik]

I am teaching 2on 2off with Kaos. We are stil only at the beginning - using a board flat on the ground. He has got the hang of it on the flat now but we haven't done it on proper obstacles yet so I'm not sure what problems we'll encounter (though slowing down as Vickie mentioned is quite possibly going to be a problem).

This is the first time I have taught a contact behaviour - with Zoe I did the verbal 'slow' command as that is what everyone else was doing and I didn't know about contact behaviours.

With weaving I teach it as a single exercise for independent running like Tassie.

[Cosmolo]

Great points guys- Vickie, if you were going to teach a running contact, whats your opinon on how it would need to be trained to avoid having an untrained contact?

I do the same as whats mentioned for the weavers- gets frustrating when the instructors at training suggest/ try to insist not to worry if she misses a weaver and to continue running the course and/ or rewarding her. I politely nod and then do it again with her only getting the reward for completing the weavers properly.

[helen]

Another question on this topic.

My picture of 2 on 2 off is the dog comes to a complete halt and then waits for another command. Does this disrupt the dog's flow and drive forward when doing distance work for open and gamblers?

[whatevah]

With Moses we did nose touch, but didn't really like it as he would do handstands at the end of contacts. Now since he knows how to do handstands, often when chasing a ball, he will do a dead stop with a handstand. I found 2on 2off to be a very precise move and to get it from all different angles to be quite hard. With Tia I am thinking of doing the drop at the end of the obstacle, because drop is a natural behaviour for her (she offers it all the time) and less precise. Have taught her to drop on a target. At Action Dogs they teach the dog to run under a hoop at the end of the contact, they also have stride adjusters on the equipment.

[mjk05]

In general, I'll train a stop of some sort on a contact for all dogs on the dogwalk, but the Aframe and seesaw will vary depending on the dog.

I did try a running contact for one of my dogs on the walk, taught with a tugtoy and heaps of reps, and while it was really fast, it wasn't reliable for us unless I was right up near the contact. I guess he was 9 or so when we trained it, but I can't see how to get a reasonably long strided dog to consistently do a real running contact. The only dog I know that does one is accidental.

The other issue is that dogs that truly run a contact are harder to guide as they come off the walk (moreso for the walk than shorter obstacles like the Aframe/seesaw). For many courses its not an issue, but in Masters classes having a dog that blasts down a walk without even an ear-check to their handler can be a liability, and I'm not sure its worth the small time advantage over an early released fast 2o2o.

So all my new dogs are learning either a stop on the contact (4 on), or 2o2o, and my old dog now alternates a sit and a running contact, to keep his speed up. I tried 4-on-the-floor for one dog, but am changing it, its too confusing for us.

For the Aframe, my oldest dog has a true running contact, and I'd prefer all my dogs to have the same. Its fast and less stressful on their front end. He was trained with a toy or food thrown at the bottom, and its reliable enough that I don't think he's ever missed a contact. He can save at least a second over dogs that have a cautious 2o2o. I've used this technique for one other dog, and it seems to work OK, although he doesn't have enough reps to be totally consistent. But it does depend on the dog- one of my young collies is determined to leap off the Aframe from halfway up regardless of the positioning of the reward, he's just a bouncy dog, so we've gone over to 2o2o, and he's driving hard into position. I don't think its done any harm teaching him to run it first- I do the same thing with the walk, to teach them to be confident and associate speed with the contacts before we do positions. For a less confident/keen dog, I'll do more running before we go back to positions, for a more drivey dog I'll teach the stop early.

Same for the seesaw- I prefer a 4-on stop, but tend to vary that depending on the dog. Most of mine seem to be OK with riding down in a drop, and then coming off when its hit the ground, but the really bouncy ones I'll tend to hold them on sometimes.

Re dog making a mistake- totally depends on the context. If I messed up and pulled them off a jump or something, I'll probably still reward them for effort (not blown contacts etc though), but if its something I'm sure they know, I'll let them know its not right (in a happy way), and we'll redo it. If its a young or less driven dog, I'll be more upbeat, if its an older or full-on dog, I might tease them about it. Generally everything other than contacts and weaves is my crappy handling though, so they'd usually get rewarded for their part.

That's in training- except for a few dogs and circumstances (missed contacts for some dogs), in a trial I'll keep going and just enjoy the rest of the run.

[Cosmolo]

Crash test dummy- can i ask a dumb question- what is a stride adjuster? Have never seen them before. Interesting that not everyone is doing 2o2o for everything- i was beginning to think i was the only one not doing 2o2o but obviously i'm not. Still be interested in your reply Vickie

[Vickie]

Great points guys- Vickie, if you were going to teach a running contact, whats your opinon on how it would need to be trained to avoid having an untrained contact?

Sorry, I missed this.

My point was that I believe a trained running contact is different to a contact where the dog runs over the contact and it's natural stride hits the contact. This is very common with smaller dogs & some slower larger dogs. Lots of these people say they have a running contact & I guess the truth is, they do...they just didn't train it. I have nothing against them, I think they're lucky. I think it is rare for a fast normal/long striding dog to hit the contact 100% of the time without training. It is only in the past 2-3 years that top agility trainers around the world have perfected their methods of teaching running contacts to the point where they are considered 100% for each dogs they train (and some would still argue that this is true).

I have never trained a running contact & probably won't. Many people teach a 2on 2off & then when they need it (eg National Final), they release the dog early...giving a very similar result to a running contact. That's my plan. Maybe when there is an international formula for running contacts that really works & has been around for a long time that is achievable for the average trainer (me), I will give it a go. I think an average trainer can easily achieve 2on 2off as there is a very clear criteria for the dog but I think you need to be an outstanding trainer to isolate & reward the behaviours required for RC's.

If I were to teach RC, I would do some research. Some of the methods used are:

putting a hoop over both contact zones so the dog has to duck slightly on either end

working out the striding required for the dog to hit the contact zone & using stride regulators (poles/humps positioned across the contact to ensure that the dogs feet touch in certain places)

Both these methods require lots & lots of repetition with the goal that the dog is learning muscle memory, they are also very exact & dogs are only rewarded for exact placement of their feet. Honestly I don't think many people in Aust. are at that level of training in agility yet. A friend of mine just returned from the US where she did some classes & went to some trials. Her first words to me when she got back "we don't train anything properly!...our best dogs here would be considered average (if that) over there"

Another method I have been reading about is Silvia Trkman's. She is famous for her running contacts & does get that accuracy with phenomenal speed. Her method, as I understand it sounds quite simple but again it is lots of repetition & from reading her training theories I think is quite dependent on the amazing foundation & relationship she builds with her dogs as well as the 100% time & effort she puts into her dogs. It is basically reward a run & prevent any effort to "jump" on the contact. So again it is very dependent on observing & analysing each & every stride.

Here is her website if you are interested, she has a lot of clips on there, including RC

http://www.silvia.trkman.net/

ETA. You know at the end of the day, I guess it depends on your goals. Not everyone has the time or aspiration to put the rest of their world on hold to achieve the ultimate, I know I don't. I like to aim for the best I can be but realise I am never going to be able to achieve the same level as someone who does agility full time, without children and no other interests in life.

Edited March 28, 2007 by Vickie

[ness]

My thoughts are if I had access to contact equipment on a frequent basis (as in ideally daily for a few short sessions throughout the day) then you might be able to get a reliable running contact through muscle memory.

I insist on a 2o/2o at training now but do let my criteria slide in a trial. Its a retrained contact anyway and I find (at least from the 1 trial I have done since) she was 100% reliable with her contacts. She isn't overly fast anyway but still use to manage to rush off the end of the obstacle and jump the colour. I need the speed of a running contact and the fact is she now keeps her head down and its changed her wait shift by insisting at training on the 2o/2o. Sure its not as good as a 2o/2o at a trial but particularly with the scramble she struggles with the position so as long as she gets her contact thats fine with me.

Edited March 28, 2007 by ness

[Tassie]

ETA. You know at the end of the day, I guess it depends on your goals. Not everyone has the time or aspiration to put the rest of their world on hold to achieve the ultimate, I know I don't. I like to aim for the best I can be but realise I am never going to be able to achieve the same level as someone who does agility full time, without children and no other interests in life.

What a good point, Vickie. I'm officially a senior citizen, and not nearly fit enough - and although officially retired, I work 4 days a week - and don't have equipment at home - so realistically, I'm not going to be able to achieve with my little BC what her potential might have been in another situation. But as her breeder says - "the dog doesn't know about titles, wins etc - she just wants to have fun and play the agility game with you". So all I can do as you say, is try to be the best handler I can be, and train her the best way I can.

[mjk05]

Running contacts for the Aframe are achievable (IMHO, anyway) for more dogs than just small or slow dogs, much more so than the walk. The most important factors are the dog's personality/focus, their structure, and the number of reps you can achieve.

I teach it with a toy at the bottom of the Aframe, about a stride out, and if possible, combine it with a jump bar at the top to encourage them to leap the apex. You can't really do it with a slow and cautious dog, because you need a dog that will drive over again and again for pretty minimal reinforcement, and will charge down the contact. But you do need a dog that's either more focussed on the chance of a toy than the rest of the course, or a bit thick, and its not great for dogs that are very long-strided or bouncy.

I'm starting all my dogs this way on the Aframe, and the ones that start bringing their heads up and taking off early, regardless of their toy-target I'm moving over to a 2o2o. If nothing else, it reinforces the Aframe as an obstacle to be charged over- nothing worse than a creeping contact.

I'm still mystified by how people teach a really reliable running dogwalk- I'll be very interested to see what Silvia T shows us when she comes over.

ETA: Helen:

My picture of 2 on 2 off is the dog comes to a complete halt and then waits for another command. Does this disrupt the dog's flow and drive forward when doing distance work for open and gamblers?

I haven't run a lot of either, but my impression is that most people either early release (before the dog comes to a complete stop) or they train for this, and teach the dog to drive out of a stop on a contact even when handled at a distance. That's what we've done at the clubs I train at, anyway. But to be honest, the trials I've been at recently haven't had a lot of distance handling challenges involving contacts- they tend to allow the handler to run parallel to the contact.

Edited March 28, 2007 by mjk05

[Cosmolo]

Thanks for all the thoughts and info- it is very interesting. I will have a look at that website Vickie. Great point that you make about dogs who naturally have a running contact with no formal training- the instructors dogs where i train seem to fall into that category as they are bigger and slower and don't 'bounce around' so to speak. So they don't really like 2o2o as they've never had to use it and their dogs contacts are very reliable.

I am going to try and train a running contact as i do think i have a dog who is more than capable of picking it up- if i'm wrong she will also be an easy dog to re teach a 2o2o if needed. But you make some great points about what i need to be aware of while i do that. My dog does not have a natural stride that would take her over the contacts so it will need to be a taught running contact. I know some people think that running contacts are old news and can't/ shouldn't be taught- this will be a learning experience for me as well but i do think we can do it.

[Vickie]

I know it's a big ask Cosmolo, but I don't suppose you would consider keeping a training diary of the steps you go through & the progress you make to share with us?

I'd be very interested in the results & how you end up going about it all.

No harm in asking

[whatevah]

I am off to agility training tonight at Doveton. It is a foundation class. We did tunnel last week and also running under hoops that were on the ground, but not at the end of the contact. We also did restrained recalls with the handler running away not looking at the dog.

[dasha]

I haven't taught my dogs a particular position on any contacts.

However I have taught them "stop' If they are running a bit eratic and what I feel is too fast I will just say stop at the point which will break their stride and they will brace to stop and then when they hit the colour I say Go and they can therefore continue with just a basic pause in stride to get the contact. Obviously they need a pretty solid immediate stop and it needs to be reinforced in all situations that they don't move until released. That way you can get away with releasing sometimes before the stop is completed.

Having said that, if they are striding correctly and are going to touch anyway, I will let them complete the dogwalk running. I don't want them anticipating the stop all the time with 2o2o and therefore losing time slowing and then stopping sometimes creeping down the whole down side as I have seem in a lot of dogs over the years.

I feel it suits me and my dogs better as they are very fast. It also allows me to stop them at the balance point of see saw without them bolting to have it hit the ground so they can get 2o2o in a hurry. I can also use the stop anywhere I want so if there is a tight spot I can use it to balance them better as sometimes on tight turns the stride is so long it puts them in line with the wrong obstacles. I can also use it to catch up to them if needed as I will use the stop on dogwalk so I can catch up to the buggers.

Edited March 28, 2007 by dasha

[Cosmolo]

Vickie, i can certainly try and keep a diary of what we do- do you want me to post it here? Has anyone ever had a fast running dog that was taught 2o2o skid/ fall because they were going too fast?

[Vickie]

Vickie, i can certainly try and keep a diary of what we do- do you want me to post it here? Has anyone ever had a fast running dog that was taught 2o2o skid/ fall because they were going too fast?

I know it's a big ask, but I am into "diaries" atm. If you are thinking of doing one, I would really love to see it & I'm sure others would as well.

I have never seen a fast dog skid or fall at the end b/c they were going too fast with a 2on 2 off. I ran Trim's Mum for a while. She has the fastest contacts I have ever seen. She was taught to shift her body weight on descent & certainly never looked like sliding or falling. The only issues I have seen a number of times are with fast dogs taught to nose touch, b/c they are actually shifting body weight forward not back & I've seen a few somersaults.

Edited March 30, 2007 by Vickie

[whatevah]

Moses used to do handstands as was taught to do nose touch. I am working on Tia doing drops. Borrowed Action Dogs Hoop thingi and made one up. Even got the guy at Bunnings to cut up the PVC for me (so it would fit better in my car, LOL ) Have got her running to a target and dropping onto it. Have put the target under the hoop. Only problem in her enthusiasm the hoop falls apart. Probably will have to work on getting her to do a straighter drop. As soon as she drops I click and throw the food forward and away from me. Sometimes I will play tug. Have put a video of 4 on the floor contacts under the video section which is under the photo section.