Lablover Posted March 26, 2007 Share Posted March 26, 2007 (edited) duplicate Edited March 26, 2007 by Lablover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted March 26, 2007 Share Posted March 26, 2007 (edited) But .........going crazy for the motivator, is at a basic level, covered at initial training. I used to think Stamp for example looked so cute, when I was distracted, and would look back at him, dropping, sitting, ......performing any behaviour to initiate/reinitiate the game. Sorry another typo. Excuse this time, accidently nipped finger. Edited March 26, 2007 by Lablover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SALTWOOD Posted March 26, 2007 Author Share Posted March 26, 2007 (edited) So what you are saying is that I am half way there but it is the last half that is the hardest to refine??? In some things I ensure the dogs gets the instant gratification of getting the toy when it does the right thing but what I want is for it to continue on behaving itself for a while before it gets the toy HOWEVER the dog thinks differently and won't go any further - if you know what I mean - not big in the work now and get paid later dept.!!! I now need help myself - I am getting confused - I am constantly trying to manipulate the behaviour and it isn't straightforward by any means!! AARRRGGGHHHHHHHHH!!! Edited March 26, 2007 by SALTWOOD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted March 26, 2007 Share Posted March 26, 2007 Sidoney, thanks for posting that article on the Premack principle- its really very interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SALTWOOD Posted March 26, 2007 Author Share Posted March 26, 2007 Would appreciate your collective opinions then on this aspect of the behaviour please - When I am walking along and give the stand command I am getting a crouch, ready to leap for the toy reward. I think I am making the mistake of letting the dog see the toy but if I don't then I don't get any attention. Perhaps I am expecting too much but I don't think the penny is dropping with the dog - waiting on my part for the right posture might fix things. However, this dog doesn't really learn quickly, I can wait a long time for a sit!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted March 26, 2007 Share Posted March 26, 2007 Hi Saltwood Its hard to know whats going on without seeing it first hand, but the problems described are usually a result of rewarding at either the wrong time, or from the wrong place. Are you using the toy to lure the dogs head up for the sit? Sitting is all about raising the head to sit, and extending it to move off into heel, so to move off, extend the lure in your left hand above and out in front of the dogs head, and pull it back and upward when you stop. The dog should follow it and rock back into a sit if you are going well. Stop the dog crouching by looping your lead in a lassoo around the dogs back half, while the clip is still attached to the collar (like he is a handbag). Always be very gentle when physically showing the dog how to stand. They dont like hands lifting the belly and it can make the problem much worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stitch Posted March 27, 2007 Share Posted March 27, 2007 (edited) Thank you for that explanation of the toy reward position Dog Dude. I have never thought of it that way and it makes sense! Edited March 27, 2007 by STITCH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidoney Posted March 27, 2007 Share Posted March 27, 2007 Another suggestion is to break the behaviour down into small pieces and teach the pieces, rather than teach the whole behaviour at once. So if there is one aspect that you want to correct, that is consistent through behaviours, teach the correct position in the easiest behaviour context, then move through other behavioural contexts. You might choose "head up" or "upright front position" (as distinct from a crouch) or something like that (or one and then the other and then the hindquarters even!). Reward the dog with the toy for the particular behaviour you are looking for in a simple context, e.g. just a sit or a stand, before adding it to more complex behaviour patterns. You could also try just "catching" the dog in the position you want, could be in a "work" session or just anywhere, any time. Use a bridge and then pull the toy out and give the toy. Dog doesn't have to see the toy the whole time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Posted March 27, 2007 Share Posted March 27, 2007 Would appreciate your collective opinions then on this aspect of the behaviour please - When I am walking along and give the stand command I am getting a crouch, ready to leap for the toy reward. I think I am making the mistake of letting the dog see the toy but if I don't then I don't get any attention. Perhaps I am expecting too much but I don't think the penny is dropping with the dog - waiting on my part for the right posture might fix things. However, this dog doesn't really learn quickly, I can wait a long time for a sit!!! Saltwood, from what you describe (and remember, I'm not seeing it so I can't be sure) this is perfectly normal. At the moment, I'd keep the toy in view as the dog is learning to work properly in drive, with proper focus and it sounds like your focus isn't quite there. IMHO the toy goes out of view once behaviour and control are well established, and you have the focus you want. Keep going - with my own dog, I had this behaviour with the drop. The dog would be so tight and excited that she could hardly bring herself to lower herself to the ground. But she learnt to control herself in the end, to get the buzz of the chase of the ball. It's not the same as when training in food drive. The dog is primed to go off, like an arrow from a bow. They are ready to run or ready to tug and worry a toy, so it takes a bit for them to learn to control themselves. This is why, if they love to work in prey drive and they work well in it, they look superb. If you're getting the crouch, just don't give the toy. If the dog knows 'stand' well, great. Go back a step and act like the dog isn't as far on with the stand. Because... the dog cannot concentrate as well yet on what they are supposed to be doing. They are honing in on the toy with every fibre of their being LOL. So think to yourself that you might have to guide the dog into the stand a bit manually. Tuck the toy into your belt or something while you do it. Then reward when it is just right. As the dog learns to control themselves in a high state of drive, they will get better and better. Whatever you do, don't give up. It really does sound like it's going great. I love working with dogs like yours, who are super hyped for a toy or ball Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SALTWOOD Posted March 27, 2007 Author Share Posted March 27, 2007 (edited) Thank you for your explanation Arya and also everyone else who helped me here. I will keep persevering!! You are right, I now see I have been rewarding a bad position with the dog and must reassess my rewarding. I never really stop learning when I work with dogs, no matter how long I have been doing it or how hard I try, there is always a new challenge!! Edited March 27, 2007 by SALTWOOD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 I never stop learning either. This site is great for learning other people's ideas. I love it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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