Food Rewards

[SALTWOOD]

I am training a dog that initially didn't really respond very well to food rewards so I used a toy.

Now I would like to use food instead of the toy.

Does anyone have any ideas on how to achieve this changeover and still maintain the dogs interest??

[dogdude]

Firstly make sure the dog is very hungry, and use a high value food like cabana or cheese (most dogs). You will have to experiment and find out. Some dogs have been known to value grapes over other more traditional treats.

It is better if you use slightly moist types that they do not have to chew too long while training, (as opposed to smacko's etc) otherwise you you get held up while he is chewing, and the dog gets too much time to forget what he has been rewarded for.

[Cosmolo]

Does the dog like food more now? Why do you want to change the reward?

[jesomil]

I am not sure from your post if you are trying to encourage more interest in the food rewards or whether the dog is now interested in food and you are changing from toy to food. So i will make a guess

Some dogs that have been allowed to graze all day with their food or who are overfed tend to value food rewards less.

How often is the dog fed and is it a good weight?

As said before by Dogdude, you need to use a food of high value and train when the dog is hungry. I have found tiny cut up pieces of BBQ chicken to be a real winner. You need to give tiny pieces of reward at a time to keep the dog interested. If you are giving big pieces of food, the dog gets too much and can loose interest.

Hope this helps.

[leopuppy04]

Is there a particular reason you are wanting to switch onto food?

Have you tried REALLY high value food such as raw meat or devon and cheese?

If yes - how about pairing food rewards to the toy? My dog is not big on pats as a REWARD - so I have paired pats = food/toy which has helped him stay motivated in the trial ring... he knows the 'target bag' is outside the ring. Perhaps you can try this with the food - food = toy.....

I have also found that *sometimes* a clicker can increase the dogs motivation to food

[Erny]

I'm also interested to know why you wish to switch to food. The dog's favourite motivator is chosen by the dog, not us. If a toy is what does it, I'd stick to that. If your dog will take treats at all (but isn't as interested as it is in the toy) you could have food on you as well (make sure it is 'special' - ie tasty; doesn't receive this style of food at any time other than for training) and use it as a secondary reinforcer.

[Kavik]

I have the opposite problem

I train primarily with food as I find it easier and my dogs are food motivated, but I would like to use a toy more often. I have a feeling with my dogs this is only going to happen with Kaos, who has good prey drive and I have done work developing it. He likes a tug and a squeaky toy. Zoe has good prey drive but I have not worked it properly, and she is older, and Diesel does not have good prey drive (will tug sometimes) - he is also the least motivated generally.

If using a toy is working, I would use it

[Arya]

I agree with Erny. I think that the dog should choose the primary reward/reinforcer. In saying this, I use ball with my dog almost all the time cos that is what she works best for. BUT, maybe you want to use food cos it's a bit inconvenient to go chucking a ball around or squeaking a toy in an obedience class. I have had this situation in the past and will work with food in places I can't start chucking balls everywhere and going crazy LOL.

For my girl, uncooked skinless franks are a treat. Bits of bacon too - yum! I agree about cabana and cheese too. These things are soft and quickly swallowed by the dog when you're working so there isn't too much distraction away from the work.

But if your dog loves the squeaky more than anything else, how about working with it when you're on your own and food at your club, if that is the problem? Just a thought. You'll get the best from your dog by letting your dog pick the motivator it loves best.

[JulesP]

The food that initially got my pup going was dried cat kibble! He wasn't that interested in the other nice things liked cooked chicken. I guess because he liked stealing the cat kibble it was a 'special' treat. Now he has the idea of treats he will work for pretty much any food.

[Tonymc]

Saltwood,I would stick with whatever has the highest value to the Dog.Our own preferences mean nothing to a Dog. Tony

[Lablover]

I am training a dog that initially didn't really respond very well to food rewards so I used a toy.

Now I would like to use food instead of the toy.

Does anyone have any ideas on how to achieve this changeover and still maintain the dogs interest??

Interesting simple question. There should be a simple reply.

Sometimes I wonder, if we are making our lives more difficult by the seemingly endless newish, dog training methods. Just like computers, once we have them down pat, a better model comes out.

Oh the confusion of it all. We use motivators/rewards to help our dogs learn and remain focused.

Some say, by not rewarding at the perfect time, we can frustrate the dog. How can a novice trainer, know they are frustrating their dog or simply extending the delay of rewards, for the dog's (and our) training benefit.

THEN some say, teach behaviour with food, then use toys/other motivators to gain higher standards.

Some say throw the reward. Others say you are throwing away the reward. Some say kick the object to show no value - HUH? - aren't they creating movement (drive) by kicking?

Oh its so much fun.

Then you have poor me, and my dogs. Labradors who are trained for retrieving trials, who must be high drive, and who are birdy. I personally cannot see how a high level retrieving prospect could value anything more than birds. But they do.......as I condition them to. Stupid dogs. :D

[Vickie]

I am training a dog that initially didn't really respond very well to food rewards so I used a toy.

Now I would like to use food instead of the toy.

Does anyone have any ideas on how to achieve this changeover and still maintain the dogs interest??

I would not change to instead of...but I think it is good to have both options of reward in your toolbox.

In general I was taught (and agree) that the best way to reward with food is to use whatever food it takes for the dog to find it rewarding...and if that means a whole leg of ham initially then then so be it. It is worth experimenting a bit to work it out I think.

My dogs are also more motivated by toys but I have taught all of them to take food as sometimes it is a more convenient option to reward a particular behaviour. I actually did the opposite of what you would think to teach them to see the food as a reward. I used a toy to reward the behaviour until doing the behaviour itself became rewarding & then rewarded that behaviour with food. For us, the reward is mostly about the interaction with me, so when I tug, I have fun, make sure my timing is as good as it can be & say certain words in a certain voice. If you pick a behaviour initially that your dog knows, in an environment it is comfortable in & use all the body language & verbals that you general use in a reward, most dogs will make the association & accept the food reward in a similar manner to a toy. My dogs can & will now go crazy for the kibble that they eat every day...not because they LOVE kibble so much, but because of the fact that it is given as a reward for soemthing they enjoy.

Reminds me of a funny story the presenter told at the last seminar I went to. Her dogs prefer toys to food, but she teaches them to take food successfully as a reward....or so she thought LOL. One of her dogs has a habit of taking the food throughout a sequence as rewards & storing it in her cheeks. It is only when the dog thinks that the training is over that she will actually eat it.

[sidoney]

I was going to say, "Premack principle" and transfer of value and then I found this previous post of mine, so I don't have to retype it all. I had the reverse desire, get toy going as well as food.

sidoney

1st Nov 2006 - 08:42 AM

I recently read Susan Garrett's "Shaping Success" and she addresses tugging or not tugging, taking food or not taking food, but not in terms of motivating for agility, but for training. She describes the way her dog Buzz became so motivated by agility that he stopped taking rewards. The problem she saw with this is that you then are unable to distinguish between wanted and unwanted performance without an aversive. For example, dog doesn't stick a contact. If the dog is rewarded by doing agility and you ask it to do the obstacle again, it's being rewarded for coming off the contact. If tug or food rewards the dog, then that can distinguish to the dog which is the desired performance. Susan describes how she got Buzz tugging again by only allowing him to do more agility if he tugged, and that she would move further and further away from the training field until he would take the tug, and then go back to do more agility as the reward. Eventually he would take the tug whenever she presented it. She did the same with food but it was more difficult and took longer. Premack principle.

Premack is what is working for me with Xia and tugging in different environments. The more likely behaviour rewards the less likely behaviour. Xia loves tug at home but tended to not tug when out. However, Xia is likely to eat delicious food in most environments. I got her used to tugging for food at home, and now am able to take that out of home - this weekend we spectated at an agility trial and she was not keen to tug for tug, but did tug for food, not too shabbily. We've been continuing to work on that. At first she would take the tug and spit it out ASAP to get the food. Lately though, I notice that she is now tugging enthusiastically, growling and shaking the tug, and enjoying the tug before the food, not just doing it in order to get it over with and eat the food. In fact this morning she was starting to get slow to release the tug to get the food. Who knows, I may end up having to have her eat food to get the tug. <grin>

I want her to take tug or food rewards for agility for the training issues mentioned above.

I think it works the other way around, at least it has with my dogs. Most of them initially weren't that enthralled by jumps, weave poles, etc, but enjoyed the play and rewards associated with training. After a few months, and starting to sequence, the dogs start to get excited at their turn, and more focussed on the agility than the reward.

Again, Premack gives a possible explanation for this behaviour. "Transfer of value". Doing agility brings reward, becomes more valued in its own right, becomes self rewarding.

I read an interesting post on an email list a while back. Edit: pretty sure it was a post by Helix Fairweather, she of the "cyber-agility" training site and a regular poster on the early email clicker lists. She described that she trained her dogs to sit on low platforms while waiting for their turn to train agility. Sitting on the platform was rewarded by coming off it to train. The value transferred and sitting on the platform became more rewarding, with the dogs then doing the training in order to earn the reward of sitting on the platform. The highest value (training or sitting on the platform) flip flopped between the two.

BTW Xia is now quite a tug and toy fiend, still working on getting it going in new environments, but going well.

[Lablover]

Fun topic on this mild sunny day.

One day I will learn how to Youtube and post a few videos. You can all pick on me. I think my dogs are great. They do as good, as they are trained.

Saw a good line the other day. PPPPPP. Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance

[SALTWOOD]

OK, sorry for the delay in answering -

Dog was initially not really that interested in food as a reward, couldn't hold its interest but it was and still is very motivated by a toy.

HOWEVER - now the toy has become a BIG problem as the dog is SO obsessed it is anticipating the reward and it is affecting the performance.

I thought - and you can all correct me here - that if I toned down the reward I might get the desired result.

Obviously something has gone wrong with my toy training to produce the results I am getting - it doesn't matter how I try to change the exercise the dog knows the end result and eg. doesn't do stands properly (crouched), won't walk properly beside me, etc. etc. all because he knows that I have the bl##dy toy!!!

My bad, I fear, but how to correct it now?????

[sidoney]

I know that one as "Proper prior planning prevents poor performance" but it's the same sort of thing. Maybe we can combine them and add another P.

Edit: sorry Saltwood, didn't see your post before I clicked post.

I'd see that as the dog needing to learn more control around the toy (with your help), and you having very clear criteria about what earns the toy.

Edited March 26, 2007 by sidoney

[Lablover]

I know that one as "Proper prior planning prevents poor performance" but it's the same sort of thing. Maybe we can combine them and add another P.

OK. I agree. 7 P's, it is. :D

[Vickie]

HOWEVER - now the toy has become a BIG problem as the dog is SO obsessed it is anticipating the reward and it is affecting the performance.

I thought - and you can all correct me here - that if I toned down the reward I might get the desired result.

Obviously something has gone wrong with my toy training to produce the results I am getting - it doesn't matter how I try to change the exercise the dog knows the end result and eg. doesn't do stands properly (crouched), won't walk properly beside me, etc. etc. all because he knows that I have the bl##dy toy!!!

In this case I would not switch to food as that would be avoiding an issue rather than fixing it and anything that is avoided always comes back to haunt us :D .

I have actually been working on something similar today. It's basically "do what I want to get what you want"

Dog A (my toy obsessed pup) circles me everytime I pick up a toy.

Dog B (not my dog) jumps around like a maniac, barking & backing away everytime I pick up a toy.

Neither behaviour is acceptable nor helpful in training, so we are fixing them.

Dog A has reasonable self control & understands the process of learning, she also understand to come to my hand when I ask her. I am luring (with the toy) into a sit position beside me & rewarding by throwing the toy. She has already learnt that I will not throw it until she is in exactly the position I want & stable. She is now moving imediately into position when I ask, but her default behaviour before I ask is still to circle. Tomorrow I will fade the luring & look for her to offer the position.

Dog B has very little self control & is highly stimulated by just about anything. We just started working on it today, I have attached a longline to her so as not to allow her behaviour of backing away. She knows how to sit but it has been a case of waiting her out today. After 4 x 5min sessions, she is now sitting beside me (long line still attached but not being used) & looking at me to throw the ball.

We will work on it again tomorrow & I after I get the success I got today I will start revving them both up a bit more & proofing the position.

Not sure if this helps, but I would look at (as above) asking for a settled behaviour before any interaction with the toy.

[Arya]

Hey Saltwood, that is GREAT!!! Don't think something has gone wrong with your training, just think you need to modify it a bit! Don't worry about the fact the dog is completely crazy for the toy, be glad. It might take time and patience for you to teach your dog to control his/her drive and restrain themselves to get their reward but it's all in how you use it. If Fido is nuts for the toy, insist on that good sit before you give it. Pick an exercise the dog knows well (this is why I mention sit) and make the dog WORK to get it right. I do understand where you're coming from cos when teaching something that requires high level of coordination such as a trick I will still go back and use food as I want a lower drive as my dog will still be tense and over reactive to get that ball. It takes time to teach them to control themselves but it's well worth it. It sounds like you're actually probably going better than you think!

[Erny]

What Arya said :D . Timing is important here. Work it so the toy is given at the exact moment things are "right", even if that means a bit of "accidental training" to begin with. Eg. In the heel, the second your dog is in the right position, give the toy. Begin to teach the dog what positions and behaviour will earn the toy and what will not.