Which Dog Is Dominant?

[shoemonster]

Our 2 are the same age (by 1 day) and have been together since they were 8 months

We have had Ed since 8 weeks and Molly came later

Until now there's really been no definite dominant dog between them, Molly is pushier, and Ed lets her do whatever she wants within reason, but will put her in her place if pushed to the absolute limit

They are generally fine with food, and will take bones off each other with no fights, Molly sometimes gets snappy if Ed walks near her while she is eating out of her bowl, but no real issues (they will let humans take anythign off them, never a problem)

Lately Molly has been trying to mount Ed alot, and we think she is trying to be dominant

I don't know whether we should be treating one as the top dog, or keep going as we are, alternating who gets fed first etc

I have heard that owners should treat the dog that wants to be dominant as the top dog, but I'm not sure

Any thoughts? Or anything else I need to explain better

It's not a problem as yet, but I don't want it to turn into one

[jesomil]

With my dogs, i am the leader and the dominant one so they are not allowed to be dominant to each other as there is no need. So basically, i am the leader and they are the rest of the pack. No assertions of dominance are allowed and no aggression ever, under any circumstance.

It works for us. I would be interested in hearing others opinions though and what works for them.

[leopuppy04]

Shoey,

stop writing interesting threads so that I can get back to work - there are too many good threads going on at the moment that I want to participate in :rolleyes:

in answer to your question - i'd leave them be unless they get really snitchy. I find dogs can be dominant for different things. Kinta is dominant about who gets through doors first and about greeting me (we areworking on fixing *that* !). Leo is dominant about toys and greeting strangers (both say ..... no, pat ME!).

Neither are overly dominant dogs, both fairly neutral. They can switch food etc, but I haven't officially tested this with fresh bones as Leo tends to finish before Kinta, and knowing him, he'd try and take it. To keep minimal fuss about sharing food, they need to feel confident that it isn't going to be 'stolen' IMO.... but one day when i'm home and they are having a bone/kong I will have the two out together. They are fine with sharing treatballs and kongs.

The only thing that I recommend that you *do* do is that if one of them gets overly dominant/snitchy BOTH get isolated. so say for example, I have had to do this a few times with my two over toys/ food. When Leo gets a little too snitchy about it i'll growl and say "HEY" and then remove the toy. Depending how bad the 'telling off' was (just a growl or a snarl or whatever) I may also give them time out in their crates.... nb: they spend so many 'good times' in their crates that I don't think it affects their crate training at all . I try not to be too growly when I put them away.

Hope that helps

ETA - in terms of who gets fed first and all that jargon - I don't really use it unless I have a 'dominance issue' between two dogs .

Edited March 20, 2007 by leopuppy04

[shoemonster]

So how would you deal with a display like Molly trying to mount Ed? Stop and praise, stop and correct? etc

They've never had a fight so it's not gotten to an aggression stage

Edited for Leos post!

Ed will actualy step back to let Molly go through the door first, like he does with us, which I saw for the first time last night

In personality Molly is more dominant as a dog, but she is also very over exitiab;e and I think maybe that is why

They also play keeping off games with each other, but once they get bored of it, one or the other will just give the toy up to the other

They are so interesting to watch

Edited March 20, 2007 by shoemonster

[shoemonster]

Oh and when Molly is completely over the top she'll get time out, but Ed will normally stay out with us, should I maybe put him in his crate too, they are never put in their crates with a growl, it's always a postive put away so he wouldn't feel punished

[leopuppy04]

yep i'm a firm believer in that if one misbehaves, then they both go in (i'm not talking about OTT here - if Molly is just OTT then she just needs a 'time out'.... I do this with Kinta too).

There is nothing worse than people who put one dog away after an 'episode' and wonder why the problem isn't being solved..... dogs like kids can work out that 'stealing' the toy results in the other dog being put away.

Yeah - my same additude about the crates shoey - its never punishment - just a 'time out'.... that was the word I was looking for !

My two play keepings off too - which I allow... but I don't allow any 'serious' growling or snapping :rolleyes:... I think it has only happened once.... If it happens in the park - I just put both dogs into a drop, release and then drop them again a few secs later.... release and let them go (without the toy for a few mins).

[TangerineDream]

In a pair who are fairly easy going and easily matched it is often the bitch who is the most dominant and it sounds like this is the case with your two.

[Griffo]

if you start favouring one dog as the dominant one and you are wrong then you can cause problems as the rightly dominant dog tries to assert his authority and will feel he needs to become more forceful...i think you should treat the dogs as equal and let them sort pecking order out amongst themselves. (i've heard that that the dominant dog position can alter between dogs throughout each day)

[jesomil]

So, does everyone think that there should always be a dominant dog with their dogs?

In a dog pack is there a single leader then the rest of the pack, or is the entire pack sorted on their level of dominance or submission right down to the most submissive dog?

[leopuppy04]

No -I think the dogs dominate over certian things and not others. Of course it depends on the dogs individual temperament, but on the whole, with most dogs, there is not one clear leader.

[Cosmolo]

I agree with and do the same as jesomil and i have 4 dogs- 3 bitches and one dog. In your case SM, i would remove Molly from on top of Ed if he was getting grumpy with it. I want my dogs to believe that i will take care of it so that they don't ever have to. Jess, one of our older dogs, mounts Georgie (the newest dog) every now and then when she is playing with Cosmo. We call Jess away or give a verbal correction because Georgie wasn't doing anything 'wrong', we're the boss and there is no reason for jess to do anything. On the other hand, Cosmo and Georgie will annoy Jess- submissive but very annoying- and we will call them away most times before Jess tells them off.

We don't separate/ isolate them if they are both at fault, rather we'll put them both in a drop and release them when they're a little more settled. I don't believe that time outs are as effective as controlling the situation yourself with both dogs still present and this is certainly my preference.

Different dogs will be dominant in different situations- some dogs place more importance on toys for instance so may appear to be 'dominant' in that regard. Doesn't mean that when it comes down to the crunch, that they are the boss, just means that they have higher value for toys than the other dogs. My dogs get fed in a different order every night, get worked/ trained in different orders etc.

Jesomil- i don't think there should always be a dominant dog with the pack- if i was to guess at pack structure in my house i would have to say that both Otto and Jessie are at the top and alternate depending on whats important and Cosmo and Georgie are the lower dogs- but i'd be heistant to split them beyond that. I don't believe that it serves a purpose unless you are having inter dog aggression issues to 'pick' a dominant dog and create pack structure.

[jesomil]

I agree with what Cosmolo said about what to do when dogs get a bit silly. I put mine into a drop stay and wait for them to settle. I dont think time out would achieve as much or help them to recognise what the problem was.

I was impressed on the weekend when i saw this bloke let out about 10 dogs from his trailer. They were mostly entire males with 2 females. They all peed then looked at their owner to see what was hapenning next. They then all loosely followed the man across the oval for a walk.

I was impressed because the dogs all looked up to him and there was no hackling or nonsense between the males. The man was their leader and they were a happy bunch.

[shoemonster]

i would remove Molly from on top of Ed if he was getting grumpy with it.

Thats the thing though, Ed just lets her do it, with no reaction whatsoever, sometimes he will walk off with her still trying to hold onto him, and he never reacts to it, it's very weird!

Only very very occasionally if she sits there niggling and niggling at him (chewing on his legs, etc, which she will often do with no reaction from him, he just lies there) for ages he will do a warning growl, and she backs off for a sec, but we've normally distracted her by then anyway

It's good to see others alternate with theirs, I had always thought that there must be "meant to be" a top dog, but good to see this is the case, as I didn't want to get it wrong and treat one as top and cause issues

[shoemonster]

Oh and meant to say, I'd put Molly in a drop instead of the crate but when she is completely revved up I would have to hold her down, and I don't want to do that, she has calmed down alot in the year we've had her, and she's gone from an absolute lunatic, to an over excited hyper dog lol

She's getting there

[TangerineDream]

The pack structure is strongly vertical - if there are any animals who consider themselves to be exactly at the same level, that's when you are likely to get dominance tussles....if you have 8 pack members, there will be 8 levels in the hierarchy even if the distance between each of the levels is hardly noticeable - you will see who defers to whom if you watch very closely.

When I had Dobermanns and a cat (and a husband ) the hierarchy went like this..

TangerineDream (alpha)

Tegan (3 year old bitch)

Rhiannon (5 year old bitch)

Kai (18 month old dog)

Paul (32 year old male human) :rolleyes:

Jaws (8 year old cat)

[shoemonster]

love the husband, does he like to be a play toy? :rolleyes:

[sas]

With my dogs, i am the leader and the dominant one so they are not allowed to be dominant to each other as there is no need. So basically, i am the leader and they are the rest of the pack. No assertions of dominance are allowed and no aggression ever, under any circumstance.

It works for us. I would be interested in hearing others opinions though and what works for them.

You're expecting a pack animal not to show dominance tendancies to each other?

A dog doesn't have to hump or be aggressive to 'try it on'.

[TangerineDream]

love the husband, does he like to be a play toy?

nah, he had really low, low, almost non-existent drive. I sent him off with a younger biatch so that he could pass on his temperament with her because I didn't think that I wanted to perpetuate his genes :rolleyes: (that was um, 1987)

[shoemonster]

Oh

Sounds like everyones better off with that then!

[Guest Clover]

Interesting you should be bring this topic up Shoey . I have been watching my guys for months now and cannot figure out who is top dog (I am top of the pack, my Mum is down the bottom somewhere :rolleyes: ).

Tinny mounts Elvis, usually in the car after Flyball for some odd reason.. i let him tell her off or if he does not i will . Elvis gets the ball off Tinny pretty much all the time unless i tell him to drop and let her bring it back. On the rare occasion Clover is quick enough to get the ball she holds onto it tight and does not let Elvis have it. And if baby Harri gets the ball no one has a hope of getting it , until he loses interest in the 'game' of keep away.

They bash one another through doorways, dont realy bother one another whilst eating etc. Oh so confusing.

Shoey i only intervene if someone is going to get hurt, i will let them tell one another off with a growl or quick snap but anything further and i will stop it.