Licking

[ILFC]

Hi everyone- right from a 12week old puppy Grover would lick other dogs faces at the park. He would lick until they got sick of it and ran off or growled etc. He has not grown out of it. I now grab him and keep walking as it really annoys most other dogs. He is particularly bad when he meets a dominant male- he will try and lick until they snap. (I have learnt to read their warning signs and grab him and keep walking). It is now unacceptable to other dogs as they tolerant of him as a pup but he is nearly 18months old now. I will not let him keep doing it (I do intervene) but he goes right up to these dogs and then has to roll over and really really submit. He then can't move until they back off and let him. I go over and break it up (as in distract other dog (nicely)) and grab Grover and keep going. The other owners do not have a problem with Grover. But I do; it is not safe for him to continue to do this; and he annoys the same type of dog all the time. Either really dominant or a gundog type. Working dogs (e.g. border collies) can't stand him. He is now not allowed off lead until recall its better but even when his recall was good he had this behaviour. What can i do?

[Cosmolo]

Is he licking around their mouth?

[OzPetRescuer]

Sounds like a practiced and learned behaviour

Does he dive straight in under their heads to give them a lick? Gun dogs tend to have a naturally confident stance and that coupled with you saying he does it to dominant dogs suggests that he is envisaging himself as a low member of the pack and is going in with the idea that if he prostrates himself in front of the other dog he wont be killed.

Some dogs pee on seeing other dogs, some dogs lick, some dogs drop

I would suggest some socialising with unthreatening dogs - dogs smaller than him, females, etc. Lots of positive reinforcement when he plays properly (although the play in itself will be reward enough)

And yes, please keep your dog on lead until he recalls - for his own safety.

[belladog]

My 2 y.o. Lab x Staff also does this- and someone told me that the licking around the mouth either means "You're the boss" or "Do you want to play?". It seems submissive to me when Bella does it, but she doesn't do it to every dog, but picks her mark as she is quite dominant and pushy with other dogs.

[ILFC]

Yes- he licks their mouth and with certain dominant dogs- does lie down and then when they 'appear' to let him up- he starts licking. He has been socialising with unthreatening dogs since a pup (I was very careful who he was with) but this makes it worse as they let him lick. I don't get a chance to reward as he doesn't stop. There are only a few dogs he doesn't do it to- namely similar age and non threatening yet not too submissive (very playful ones). If they are really submissive too- he bullies them (stands over- lifts up tail and fur goes up) so I go and get him and keep walking. He is really really soft and sensitive to train and live with- so I'm trying to keep his confidence up too. Frustrating.

[Tangwyn]

Bad news, I'm afraid. They don't call Flatcoats the "lick-lick-dogs" for no reason! :rolleyes:

Its an innate breed trait and one which you will probably have to live with. I find it adorable but guess others may not...

ETA: The best way to control it in the off-leash environment is to improve the quality and reliability of your recall. He should be coming immediately and every time you call. It is do-able. My 4 month old Flatcoat pup is extremely sociable but I noted the other day that when I called him as he was en-route to a Border Collie he did a 180 degree turn and came straight back. His recall has been conditioned with treats and a clicker. He's currently on a 1:1 reward schedule for recall. Good luck!

Edited March 20, 2007 by Tangwyn

[Cosmolo]

Why do you want to discourage a pup from being submissive with other adult dogs?

[ILFC]

I don't want him to not be submissive but i don't want him to get bitten by another dog either from not reading the warning signs that they are fed up (e.g. stiff body, growling etc.) He will ignore and keep going and the other dogs don't like it. Yes- Tangwyn recall was pretty good 95% rate- too social-then recently regressed badly. Tried it tonight and it was great- depends if his best friends are at the park or not. Got to go back to the call and treat thing. Licking doesn't bother me and Grover is unbelievably popular at the park-everyone just says "Oh that's Grover" he's just a pup (18months later) but I want him to read dog body language better. Even if he never does that the recall is going to get better or else. He has always been naughty about the recall- that is the one thing that I have had to work on consistently from the beginning. If he's by himself- he's the best- other dogs e.g. goldies he is bad bad bad!

[Erny]

Unless your dog is in real danger of a retaliation that is likely to lead to injury, I'm inclined to suggest let other dogs deal with it. It is a submissive signal and yes, I know of some dogs who are more inclined than others. If your dog cops a scold from a dog or two, that might be just what he needs. If the other dogs have been appropriately socialised and understand correct dog/dog communication, their "tellings off" should not be to the excess. This is difficult, however, if you are unfamiliar with the dogs he is interacting with in this way.

Does he have a tendancy to lick you? Eg. You go to pat and he tends to start air licking (or if your hand is close enough, licks your hand)?

[ILFC]

Yep-licks all the time- gets a 'soft' look in his eyes and licks - like with a tragic face :rolleyes: As Tangwyn said I think it is flat coat thing. Firstly, recall is going to improve! But yes- I was letting other dogs do the "telling off" and they haven't bitten yet. I also thought he may grow out of it- didn't happen He is really social and has been since we got him but I don't understand why he is not reading body language and stopping! i have no problems intervening as I am right there anyway and always watch him but I don't know- do I just leave it? I told him off for doing it tonight at the park and is got somewhat better-but he really wants to do it- not often but there is the odd person who doesn't like their dogs face getting washed and that's fair enough. This is just my thoughts and it is a human take but its like those kids at school that bounce around saying "LIKE ME, PICK ME, PLAY WITH ME ME ME!!!" and trying to force a dominant dog to like him and play with him.

[Tangwyn]

I don't believe the Flatcoat licking behaviours are necessarily submissive although dogs of this breed generally appear to be of soft temperament. My Flatcoat even licks the cat and he's certainly not being submissive. More like he's treating the cat like an icy-pole! He licks me, my other dogs, new dogs, new people etc etc and he only pairs the licking with other submissive behaviours on the odd occasion.

To me, wanting to stop licking behaviours in a Flatcoat is similar to wanting to stop herding behaviours in a Kelpie because all that stalking, crouching and running up and down is annoying. Certain characteristics are inherent in breeds - annoying or not.

Three words - recall, recall, recall.

[Erny]

My friend's dog is a "licker". Of everything - air; hands; feet (yuck!!!) and if he can't get those, then sometimes the knees of your jeans if you're sitting down. Although I believe this behaviour is borne of the natural submission he exhibits, I also strongly suspect that he has been inadvertently reinforced for the licking behaviour. If I go to pat him, he tries to lick my (eg) hand/under wrist. I pull my hand away, refuse to pat him and proceed to ignore him. I will repeat this until he contains his tongue in his mouth! I have found that (with me, anyway) the behaviour is reduced (difficult to completely eradicate and slow progress as it is not followed through with at home - fair enough, his owner probably doesn't see it as a problem).

When my girl was alive, he was her best friend. But even his licking of face was sometimes more than she could tolerate. I left it to her as to how far she wanted to take it to get him to quit. Kal was great this way, as her reactions were text-book perfect. Sometimes she'd lip-curl, sometimtes lip-curl and growl ..... and if he really pushed her she'd growl, turn and 'snap' at him. But I knew her and never doubted with her that (a) her friend would back-down and not rise to any perceived challenge and (b) that there would be no bloodshed.

Your dog's behaviour is not generally a threatening behaviour and provided he is interacting with dogs who do not act inappropriately, their reactions should not be so excessive to be injurious. Dogs will always be able to communicate better with dogs than we can (all things being equal, that is) and where I think it is reasonable to allow I like to let one put another (insubordinate) in its place if necessary.

But again - you need to know the dogs (not just your own) and also need to be able to trust the control, vigilence and knowledge of the other dog/s owners. So I guess it boils down to how comfortable you feel in each of the situations. But at least, in the meantime, be sure to NOT inadvertantly reinforce your dog's licking behaviour towards you or anyone else. Whether it will have a carry-over effect to other dogs is a big uncertainty and possible doubt (unless they too exhibit a reaction that your dog doesn't want), but it can't hurt. IMO.

Edited March 21, 2007 by Erny

[ILFC]

Thanks guys-recall-totally agree. I don't let him go near unfamiliar dogs and start licking etc. He's never been bitten-there's lots of regulars and they tolerate or tell him off. Just is annoying with other dogs- he must get some pleasure/reinforcement out of it or he wouldn't do it Other owners vary in their vigilance- but I'm always watching- he's pretty full on-so I have to keep an eye out anyway. The licking of us isn't too bad and he would love to lick the cat if she would let him! If it is the breed and that's the worst I've got than I can live with that- but I just wondered if I should be doing anything about it. It is rude behaviour to some dogs and not to others- I just watch the other dogs body language too. Lookout Grover-here comes recall practise! (he was great again tonight- I think the worst time is the high excitment times- e.g. favourite dogs or lots of dogs etc. ) It's hard with Grover sometimes- having never had a dog before and not being able to ask his breeder about behaviours that are flat coat stuff makes you think you are the only one out there- maybe I expect too much-like expect him to have no quirks.

[whatevah]

My Josh is a flatcoat and a typical licker. He is 5. When younger he did all the licky things with other dogs. I just let him be and the let the other dogs sort it out. He doesn't do i, as much now. But if he senses another dog is nervous such as a puppy etc he will go up and lick the dogs face and it does seem to calm the other dog down. If you tell Josh off for licking it will make it worse, he will lick even more. When we had a sheep he used to go up to the sheep and give licky licks. He loves licking people. At our club we have 3 flatcoats and when they meet it is like a lickathon. Hilarious. Are you a member of the flatcoated retriever club? Give them a call. They are very helpful.

[ILFC]

No-I'm not a member of the club- am in WA. Well, it doesn't seem to be a big deal if the others are doing it- I'll leave him be. It does make it worse if i tell him off. Recall is the key to get him away from dogs that their owners don't like it.

[whatevah]

I teach all of my dogs to come to a whistle. If I see Josh heading for a non doggy person who I think does not like Josh's lickiness, I just quickly blow my whistle and he literally turns on a dime and comes to me. I just let Josh sort it out himself with other dogs. Maybe that way he got it out of his system. My main concern with my dogs is that they aren't aggressive, anything else is a bonus. Could you do a video of your dogs licky licks might be funny. I may video Josh lick lick licking, because I have never seen a dog more licky than him not even at the flatcoat fun day.

[ILFC]

Seriously-Grover can lick-he even chews the ears of a few beagle and wiemeraners (sp?) cos' they are long and floppy! He will lick until the dog has a soaked face. JOsh and Grover would have a ball-we'd have two soaked dogs. Yes-am off to work on recall now- wish Grover was that consistent as Josh. At least other flat coat owners have that problem. :

[JulesP]

Hey I have a licker too! He is a border collie though. Has done since he was a pup and is now a year old. He is a very submissive dog. Never had trouble with other dogs getting grumpy with him though, all dogs seem to like him. Have used him at training to give other dogs confidence. He is very gentle with little dogs and puppies.

He licks everything too. The cat is always soggy! He drives my other border nuts with it. He goes to town on her! He licks me. He sits outside and licks the glass if he can see me!! Sort of squashes his nose and against the window and licks

[Tangwyn]

He sits outside and licks the glass if he can see me!! Sort of squashes his nose and against the window and licks

Photo please!!

[ILFC]

Hey-great sometimes I feel like I have a freak but it is kinda funny. Grover will lick the glass doors too and get his tongue stuck Thanks Tangwyn too- having no help from the breeder, its great to hear about flat coat things too. I'm glad that you have a licky lick dog too Jules P -imagine our dogs together-no baths needed!