Cosmolo Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 I am curious to know what commands you use with your dogs for a sit or drop stay and in trials. The obedience club i went to last year found it unbelievable that we use neither wait nor stay and that sit and drop means do so until i give you another command or you are released. They seemed to think that doing that doesn't give the dog the best opportunity to obey- i say it gives the dog absolute clarity. For those of you who use stay/ wait commands or a release word, why do you do so and what are the advantages/ disadvantages in both a trial sense and practical application? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 (edited) Good question, Cosmolo. As you know I don't find use for stay or wait either and train as you do ..... ie sit means sit (or drop means drop etc) until I release you or change the command. I was reading in another thread (in general?) where some use "stay" to mean "stop there but I'm not going to move away" and "wait" to mean "stop there and I am going to move away" (or vice versa). I would think less is more when it comes to verbal commands for dogs, but I too am interested in those who trial as to what their thoughts on the subject are and what the advantages of these additional commands are. Admittedly, I used to use the word "stay" to my girl and for her it meant "stop there, but I don't care if you chose to stand, sit, or drop, just don't move away from that spot. She seemed to also understand that "stay home" meant she could wander and do whatever she wanted within the home and yard, but could not venture out beyond the front gate. This latter one was a very loose term I would give her though. It worked for the small moments it might be necessary but mostly the gates were closed so it was unneccessary. Edited March 19, 2007 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsD Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 To me, the drop is the actual action of dropping to the ground. I use stay to mean "stay in that position until I return to you or release you". I use wait when I am planning on giving another command eg recall, retrieve, waiting until they get in the back of the car etc. I use it in a whole range of situations, not just trialling. I dont like using stay when I want my dogs to move afterwards as I think it gives unclear messages to the dog ie this time I want you to stay & not move, but next time I want you to move. So they either get a "stay" then praise or a release command (mine is "free") or a "wait" & a second command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted March 19, 2007 Author Share Posted March 19, 2007 Mrs D- thanks for your reply- what do you feel is the value of the stay and wait commands though- do you think that it makes it clearer for the dog than just having a command and release? The first time we went to our training club, they were impressed but then over time it changed to disdain in that- they said if the dog made a mistake in a trial, it would be our fault for not giving the dog the best opportunity (with an obvious hand signal and stay command) to win. Erny- we have an informal command as well similar to what you describe- stay there is not a position at all but just means hang around where you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Good question Cosmolo. I am a stay/waiter and I dunno, maybe it helps me feel more confident, but I honestly feel that it *does* help the dog. My dogs have absolutely no problems holding a position until released. I do however feel that they become more confident if I tell them to "wait" while they are performing the exercise. For example, when teaching Leo to Beg, I simply added in a 'wait' as he was always coming down too soon, and he seemed to 'understand' what I wanted and was able to hold the position for much longer. It is a little hard for me to explain. I only use a stay/wait for when I am leaving the dog - I use a wait in a recall or agility exercise as they then know I am going to call them to me... I use a stay when I must return. To me, it seems to tell the dog 'what' is coming next rather than keeping them guessing. The other reason I use it is that sometimes I will ask for a 'sit' and 'wait and see' in terms of wanting them to offer me something. So I might get a wave, cover eyes, shake or whatever..... the sit allows the dog to move his paws and body so long as he remains seated.... if he is in a stay/wait, then no paw movement is allowed.... again, I think it just gets the message across to him clearer. Finally, I think it is for the handlers benefit - we feel more confident leading out after having told our dog to stay thats the best way I can answer... perhaps with a more specific question I may be able to answer better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsD Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 (edited) Mrs D- thanks for your reply- what do you feel is the value of the stay and wait commands though- do you think that it makes it clearer for the dog than just having a command and release? Cosmolo, yes, I do think it makes it clearer for the dog, epecially in the early stages. Otherwise when you are teaching stays/recall etc especially early on the only physical cue you are giving the dog whether it has to stay or come with you is which leg you move off on & I think that's very difficult for a novice dog (I use novice in the correct sense of the word, not as a trialling class definition). Even dogs who compete in UD classes are usually given the advantage of a hand signal for "heel" & a hand signal for "stay/wait" in their signal only exercises .Some people even give different hand signals for stay & wait (fingers closed vs fingers spread in front of the face) but I think the most important factor is using a completely different verbal command ie I use "stay" said fairly normally but emphasise my "wait" by pronouncing it "Way - t" so it sounds completely different. I dont know why anyone would treat you with distain for not using the command though, that just shows their ignorance IMO. I certainly think it's "different" that some people chose not to use a command, but that what makes dog training interesting - every dog & every trainer is different . I personally wouldnt do it, but hey, as long as it works for you & your dog, that's no one's business but yours . ETA - Leopuppy I just saw your other thread, congrats on Leo's title - well done Edited March 19, 2007 by MrsD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 I guess using stay/wait as gives the dog some estimate of the time I am requiring it to do what I've asked too I also agree with Mrs D, on the only other way the beginner dogs know whether or not to come with us would be which foot we take off on, which wouldn't really be fair on the dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted March 19, 2007 Author Share Posted March 19, 2007 Hmm, this is very interesting. Just to clarify, i DO use hand signals but not stay or wait. So in taking off, from a sit to heel, i would use a hand signal or command for a beginner dog- i don't expect the novice dog to pick up what my feet are doing. If i am leaving the dog in a sit, the dog hasn't seen or heard any other command so the sit is still the relevant position for the dog. Interesting SM- i don't want the dog to have an estimate of the time i will be away and/ or what i will do next as IMO it leads to anticipation by the dog. Its arguable as to whether this is a good thing. What if you don't meet the dogs expectation and have a longer time frame? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 yes, I do think it makes it clearer for the dog, epecially in the early stages. Otherwise when you are teaching stays/recall etc especially early on the only physical cue you are giving the dog whether it has to stay or come with you is which leg you move off on & I think that's very difficult for a novice dog (I use novice in the correct sense of the word, not as a trialling class definition). I see what you mean and assume you're talking here of going from a commanded static position into the "heel". But you'd give the dog the verbal cue for "heel" too, wouldn't you? Not just about moving off with you because you're moving off with the "come with me" leg? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Interesting SM- i don't want the dog to have an estimate of the time i will be away and/ or what i will do next as IMO it leads to anticipation by the dog. Its arguable as to whether this is a good thing. What if you don't meet the dogs expectation and have a longer time frame? Hmmm... do you think the 'stay/wait' will affect this Cosmolo?? I think even if you just told your dog to sit/drop and exceeded their expectations (ie: dog broke) you would have the same response. Telling the dog to 'stay/wait' is not necessarily giving the dog an idea of how long away you will be - we still vary at what stage we return. How do you mean it will lead to anticipation? Perhaps for the wait, if you were always doing a recall, but usually many of us do distance signals, d/b etc, so the dog doesn't really know what it is waiting for??? Mrs D - thanks for the congrats!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 (edited) Yeah I guess there are good and bad, like by saying wait they may anticipate a recall but then if you are asking for different behaviours on a wait they won't know what to anticipate With regards to having a longer time frame, you would only be giving a time frame that the dog had been trained up to either way so I don't thinkit would make too many problems, I guess by timeframe I mean if I say wait, you just have to wait a little while til I tell you something else, but if I say stay you are to stay there for as long as it takes for me to get back I don't know if I'm making sense! ETA extra comments cos I took so long to post that I missed some comments! Edited March 19, 2007 by shoemonster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 (edited) If a dog has learnt through out teaching that drop means "could be here for a short while or a long while - I know I have to wait here until I hear my release word or some other command to change" (and this comes with randomisation both in time; distance and whether it's a release/recall/other command or return to dog first) what difference to the outcome if "wait" or "stay" isn't an inclusion in it's human taught vocabulary? Isn't it the same? And if it is, aren't we filling the dog's head up with additional or unneccessary words? I'm one for "if it works for you, great". But I'm also one for "if it makes it easier for the dog to learn/know, then even better". Maybe it is as one earlier poster suggested - maybe it's the human component of the 'team' that finds it beneficial and more comfortable? ETA: If it's not - ie if there is a bigger advantage to the dog being able to learn easier and faster, then I'm yet to understand it. PS I'm wondering if it's the way we train and/or when we train for what? I train each thing individually. IE sit; drop; recall; stand; loose lead walking. Then heel and the 'stay' work. Then I start chaining a couple together etc. etc. Edited March 19, 2007 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsD Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 (edited) yes, I do think it makes it clearer for the dog, epecially in the early stages. Otherwise when you are teaching stays/recall etc especially early on the only physical cue you are giving the dog whether it has to stay or come with you is which leg you move off on & I think that's very difficult for a novice dog (I use novice in the correct sense of the word, not as a trialling class definition). I see what you mean and assume you're talking here of going from a commanded static position into the "heel". But you'd give the dog the verbal cue for "heel" too, wouldn't you? Not just about moving off with you because you're moving off with the "come with me" leg? Erny, that's sort of what I mean, if you give a verbal command or hand signal to "heel" (as I said, even in UD the majority of people give their dog a hand command), why wouldnt you give it the same help by giving it a verbal command or hand signal if you want it to stay? I think we could go round & round in circles with this question - I can see what you are saying as well, but I choose to look at it slightly differently - because I can & I think it makes it easier for the dog, I choose to use an extra command/signal. Neither is "right" cos, as you know in dog training, all roads lead to Rome (probably not a good metaphor, but you know what Im saying ) EFS Edited March 19, 2007 by MrsD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 If a dog has learnt through out teaching that drop means "could be here for a short while or a long while - I know I have to wait here until I hear my release word or some other command to change" (and this comes with randomisation both in time; distance and whether it's a release/recall/other command or return to dog first) what difference to the outcome if "wait" or "stay" isn't an inclusion in it's human taught vocabulary? Isn't it the same? And if it is, aren't we filling the dog's head up with additional or unneccessary words?I'm one for "if it works for you, great". But I'm also one for "if it makes it easier for the dog to learn/know, then even better". Maybe it is as one earlier poster suggested - maybe it's the human component of the 'team' that finds it beneficial and more comfortable? ETA: If it's not - ie if there is a bigger advantage to the dog being able to learn easier and faster, then I'm yet to understand it. PS I'm wondering if it's the way we train and/or when we train for what? I train each thing individually. IE sit; drop; recall; stand; loose lead walking. Then heel and the 'stay' work. Then I start chaining a couple together etc. etc. hiya Erny. I agree with Mrs D - I think this could go round and round in circles. I partly think that it *is* for the 'trainers' benefit knowing that the dog has been told to 'stay' there etc, etc. what you describe as your dog knowing that 'drop' means stay in that position until you hear otherwise, rings true for many dogs that also have the 'stay' / 'wait' command. That is the joys of having a release command. Although, like I said earlier - I may, particularly at the beginnings of training tricks ask for a 'sit' and then 'wait and see' if they will offer me anything else - in a stay, I don't want this to happen, hence why I add the commands. I honestly do think that it helps the dog 'relax' knowing that you will return in due time... or rather what to 'expect' to a certian degree (am I going to you or are you coming to me). I know for one that both of my dogs tend to 'relax' when they know they are in a 'stay' or 'wait' rather than being a little 'antsy' in the sit/drop as they are unsure what is coming next. Question for you though - do you consider commands such as 'hold' also fruitless? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 This came up when I was doing my instructors course and the trend now seems to be that you aren't supposed to use the wait/stay words. I can understand the thought process that the dog should stay in the sit until given a new command but I use the wait/stay words! I guess it depends on how you train them from the beginning. I don't think that either way is wrong. I use the stay/wait as much for me as the dog! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 This discussion was raised at a training group in October. Thoughts being in light of the new UDX positions in motion exercise that just so that they weren't teaching puppy people anything that would conflict later if they wanted to trial that they would teach them as a Sit, Drop, Stand until given an extra command (i.e. as default stays). So no more stay or wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted March 19, 2007 Author Share Posted March 19, 2007 I know this could go round in circles- but healthy discussion is a good thing and its good to hear other perspectives, even if you don't agree with them. I think this has been a great discussion so far. Mrs D- as to the heeling versus why wouldn't you give an additional command for stay- here is a answer which i think might make some sense as to where i am coming from- I don't consider the STAY to be a separate exercise- if the dog is already in a sit or a drop, that is the command, the position and the stay is irrelevant- sit means sit until i say you can get up or ask you for another position/ exercise and likewise with drop. Hence, there is no need to give an additional command as the dog is already doing the exercise. Here's another question- for those of you who use wait and or stay- i assume you use it for a sit, drop and stand- how is that not using the same command for 3 different positions? LP- hold as in holding a dumbell when you give it to the dog? I understand what your saying about the dogs relaxing but i can assure you my dogs are completely relaxed in their stays as they know they have to stay there until i say otherwise- same concept as what you have with the wait/ stay- i don't think wait/ stay does anything awful to the dog, but do view it as unnecesary. The dogs i have met with the most reliable stays have always however, been dogs that are trained not to move until release or additional command Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Yep Cosmolo - I mean for 'hold' with the dumbell. I hear you - and don't get me wrong, I don't think that NOT saying a stay/wait is wrong, but perfectly feesible. I just feel in myself 'more comfortable' having said stay/wait - hence why I say it is partly for 'trainers peace of mind' to say so. I am sure that in another 10 years or less even, it will hardly be used, but I still like it . As for using the 'stay' as the same command 3 different positions - no I don't see it that way. We have first told the dog to 'sit/drop/stand' and then if we are to leave, all the stay means is 'hold that position till you hear otherwise'. Like I said, I understand why you see it as a fruitless exercise as you are probably thinking "yes, but my does DOES that from me just saying "sit/drop/stand". LOL. Having said that - despite my little problems with 'stays', I dont' link them to using stay/wait. But then, before I introduced the stay/wait command, my dogs had a very reliable static positions and would hold it with me walking circles around them etc, without moving until released.... I don't think there is any definitive answer - just another one of those 'which trainer' is right discussions.... not that there is anything wrong with discussions - I usually pick up something new in every one . As for those that think it is 'wasting' commands - do you see anything wrong with dogs having 'too many' commands? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 As a stayer/wait user I am now interested to see if the doggies will stay put if I don't use that command. They don't tend to move until I give them the free command. Well the old girl doesn't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsD Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 (edited) As for using the 'stay' as the same command 3 different positions - no I don't see it that way. We have first told the dog to 'sit/drop/stand' and then if we are to leave, all the stay means is 'hold that position till you hear otherwise'. Yep I am the same as you - to me, the sit/drop/stand command is the dog putting itself into that position, the stay command means "hold that position until I return to you & release you" or in the case of wait "until I give you another command". But just to confuse things even more, on further reflection of my training, I would only use the stay/wait command if I was moving away from the dog ie if i was standing next to the dog & told it to stand, I would expect the dog to stand next to me until I gave it another command. Does that make sense? So if I walked up to a friend & told my dog to drop & started talking to her, I would expect my dog to stay in that position until I gave it another command (either release or obedience like heel etc). So in that case, I do expect the dog to stay until I give a further command just like Cosmo & Erny - confused now? So am I . Ness, I had forgotten about the new UDX change of position on the move exercise, interestingly there are heaps & heaps of dogs competing in UDX that were taught the old way with stays & waits & most dont have a problem with the exercise, so you have to wonder does it really make a difference? ETA - Jules, that's what Im wondering now too ;) . Edited March 19, 2007 by MrsD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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