bonny_beagle Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 I've done a quick forum search on this topic but didn't find what I was looking for. I have a 3yo desexed male lab that religiously chases our 6 cows and horse (separate paddocks) whenever he spots them. He barks alot and seems to like moving them about, but after a couple of minutes or if they get to a corner he comes back. He seems to be enjoying himself but I think the cows are over it. He's been here several months but on arrival couldn't run due to health issues, so it's only been a few weeks that's hes been at it. He ignores me completly once he spots them. I'm really not sure if he's just chasing or herding or what. My initial thought was to chain him after he chased, but we're always out in the paddock and by the time we get home it feels like its too late for him to know what the punnishment would be for. Any tips welcome as I've got 3 month old foster pups looking like they'd like to join in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freckles Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 I don't have any suggestions to help stop him but aren't you glad my foster beagle didn't make it up to you. That is the reason she was moved on, she liked to mingle with the sheep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 Firstly, before you thinkabout training him, you need to stop him right now! One kick in the wrong place & he's dead instantly. The longer you let him do it, the more enjoyable he will find it. He will also think it's OK to chase other people's stock...and that usually ends in a bullet. Sorry if I sound harsh, but it's a cold hard finality if things go wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonny_beagle Posted March 14, 2007 Author Share Posted March 14, 2007 (edited) Luckily there are no sheep here and the cows are very understanding, they are used to dogs and very quiet. Best she is away from tempation altogether though I imagine for a beagle the hares and roos would be far more tempting than the stock! How is the big girl? Tara suits her :D Edited March 14, 2007 by bonny_beagle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 Flame away but the mot reliable and IMO kindest solution for stock chasing is to have a session with him, a reputable trainer and a remote trainer. Usually there is not much that is of a higher value to the dog so its hard if not impossible to lure him away and reward and lead corrections will only serve well while he is on a lead. Chaining him up after is unlikely to help, it may make it worse if the chaining increases his level of frustration for next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 wow gotta stop that quick smart before he chases someone elses stock or ends up learning to bite and kill. Electronic collars are great for training the dog, but you need a qualified trainer to help you. Try PMing K9 Force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonny_beagle Posted March 14, 2007 Author Share Posted March 14, 2007 Firstly, before you thinkabout training him, you need to stop him right now! One kick in the wrong place & he's dead instantly. The longer you let him do it, the more enjoyable he will find it. He will also think it's OK to chase other people's stock...and that usually ends in a bullet.Sorry if I sound harsh, but it's a cold hard finality if things go wrong. Not harsh at all, these are my concerns - how do I stop him though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonny_beagle Posted March 14, 2007 Author Share Posted March 14, 2007 Flame away but the mot reliable and IMO kindest solution for stock chasing is to have a session with him, a reputable trainer and a remote trainer. Usually there is not much that is of a higher value to the dog so its hard if not impossible to lure him away and reward and lead corrections will only serve well while he is on a lead. Chaining him up after is unlikely to help, it may make it worse if the chaining increases his level of frustration for next time. You mean an electric collar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 yep! He needs to learn quickly and in no uncertain terms that staying with you is good, and being a hunter of cows is BAD!! I agree..please contact Steve at K9Force NOW ..before the dog or the cows, or some other animal gets hurt. As you alluded, he has reinforced the fact that doing this is FUN..and any 'punishment ' will come too late to extuingish this pleasure sensation. To avoid any slips..contact a professional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 Not harsh at all, these are my concerns - how do I stop him though? You don't allow him access to them, until you have gotten some help & he is reliable. Do you have a fenced area that he can't get out of? Any walks where he will have access to them will need to be on a lead or a long line. I grew up on a cattle farm, cows are not predictable animals, even if they appear gentle. It is much easier to prevent this behaviour than to cure it once it has started. Both my girls will walk happily off lead in a paddock with cows, they have never known any different & since they have never been given any other choice it does not occur to them to go near the cattle. It's important that you don't let the foster pups start, both for their sake & for the sake of their new owners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonny_beagle Posted March 14, 2007 Author Share Posted March 14, 2007 He is in a one acre fenced yard most of the time but I take the dogs for a run in the paddock once or twice a day. I will try leaving him in or only taking him on a lead. Thanks for the advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 Yes, an electronic collar. Are you looking to manage the problem or to eventually fix it so that he can be around stock, even at a distance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonny_beagle Posted March 15, 2007 Author Share Posted March 15, 2007 Yes, an electronic collar. Are you looking to manage the problem or to eventually fix it so that he can be around stock, even at a distance? Either but ideally fix it. I am more used to dogs that will walk through a paddock full of stock and not pay any notice, so I know its possible, just not sure how to make it happen for this dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardog Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 I have a friend who had smiliar problem and consulted K9Force. http://www.k9force.net/ Might be worth a try. All the best, Julie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WorkNBCs Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 You don't allow him access to them, until you have gotten some help & he is reliable. Do you have a fenced area that he can't get out of? Any walks where he will have access to them will need to be on a lead or a long line.......It's important that you don't let the foster pups start, both for their sake & for the sake of their new owners. I couldnt agree more - I had a dog that used to do that when I first got him and so I invested in a lunge rein (like they use to lunge horses) until I had him under control. It is a much easier behaviour to preven than to cure so best keep your foster pups away until you have a 200% reliable recall on them and they learn that they are not allowed to chase anything. I would add that at this stage I would discourage them from chasing anything unless it is instigated by you at this stage in their short lives. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Working_Setters Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 I agree with the e-collar suggestion. I have used one to cure several dogs of their stock chasing habits. The suggestion to get the assistance of a pro-trainer is a good one, but to be truthful it aint rocket science. If you've trained a couple of dogs on your own, then I don't think the transition to an e-collar is that big of a deal. Just use common sense and a level of stimulation that is appropriate to the dog you're training. Also don't fit the collar and start stimulating straight away, the dog will become "collar-wise" and behave while wear the collar, but return to old habits once it's off. Put the e-collar on the dog everyday, right before going for a walk, for 2-3 weeks before you stimulate. That was e-collar comes to mean "walk/fun" rather than "shock". Naturally you will keep the dog well away from stock during the 2-3 weeks before you start stimulating. In my experience this problem can be solved very quickly by intelligent use of an e-collar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 (edited) The critical part is in the timing and being aware of other environmental factors that might possibly be paired by the dog with the stimulation at the time it is given - this will mean working to avoid the pairing, or generalising the training so the dog understands that the only thing that triggers the stimulation is the chasing of livestock. IE That no other factor in the environment is relevant. Whilst I agree with WS that it is not rocket science and that common sense should also apply, unless you know how to find the dog's "working level" and know when to quit on a session, I still think professional tuition at least until you have become confident and adept in the use of the e-collar would not go astray. The dog's reaction to the e-collar should also first be determined in a safe, enclosed environment. ETA: And like the others here, I agree that in the meantime and between times, PREVENTION of the behaviour is essential. Otherwise your dog will continue to re-affirm the reinforcement that is available to it when it chases stock and this will cause the behaviour to become more ingrained and more difficult to erase or reduce. Edited March 15, 2007 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Working_Setters Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 (edited) By way of clarification, I would add that IMO if you want to get the maximum use out of an e-collar as a training tool, then you need a considerable amount of skill and knowledge. If on the other hand you will limit the extent of e-collar training to breaking stock chasing, then considerably less skill and knowledge are needed. In the case of breaking stock chasing there are really only 3 variables (1) When to stimulate - I'd suggest when the dog engages the stock. At my place running in a paddock with stock is OK, running near stock is OK, engaging stock - chasing/harassing are not OK (2) When to stop stimulating - When the dog dis-engages with the stock (3) What level to stimulate at - The minimum needed to stop the dog chasing stock. I'd recommend keeping quiet throughout this training, there is no need to say anything and IMO it's better if you don't. I agree with Erny's last post, if you have access to a e-collar savvy pro, then using them is not a bad idea. I also think that the other thing you need to do is teach a reliable stop (I'd use a whistle and train until the dog stops first time, every time). You should teach this without the use an e-collar, but could use the collar to enforce the sit once the command has been well learnt. Edited March 15, 2007 by Working_Setters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonny_beagle Posted March 15, 2007 Author Share Posted March 15, 2007 (edited) I'm now looking into an ecollar but for the mean time going very low-tech - lead. Two walks so far, one yesterday afternoon and again this morning, on a long lead, no cow chasies which is good. He could see them and was interested but couldn't go near them and did not get too agitated at being restrained. Thanks again for all the great advice. Edited March 15, 2007 by bonny_beagle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou Castle Posted April 1, 2007 Share Posted April 1, 2007 The most common way that an Ecollar is used for this problem is to simply wait until the dog is in full chase and then hit the button with it set on a fairly high (if not the highest available) level of stim. This usually works but sometimes problems arise. The first problem is that the dog doesn't know what's causing the pain and so he powers through it. If this occurs he may never stop chasing. The second problem is that he associates the pain with being away from you instead of chasing the stock. If this occurs he may never leave your side again. Another problem is that he may become afraid of the stock pen and will never go there again. Another problem is that he may associate the pain with the stock and will become even more aggressive towards them. I suggest that you read this protocol and follow it. It's never failed to stop this behavior for me and none of the problems described happen with it. After it's done the dog simply acknowledges the presence of the prey animal and doesn't chase them. http://loucastle.com/critter4.htm There's nothing wrong with getting a trainer to help with this stuff. But many people have used the articles on my site to train their dog without any other help and are completely satisfied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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