Stopping A Dog From Creeping

[leopuppy04]

LOL - pretty similar to my last thread, but this is more for ME and competition wise.

I'm trying to do distance work with Leo for the novice component. I say drop and he does.

Problem?

He was taught to drop from a sit so will come forward in the drop, he won't really take any steps forward, but I'm concerned he will be more than 1/2 the body length infront if we were to do this for the optional exercise.

If I put something in front of him, he will to it fine whilst that thing is infront, and if I decrease the size of it, he will still creep forward.

I have started putting a different cue and using this cue "Park" to get him to foldback. It seems to be working, but I was hoping to see if anyone else has some ingenious ideas.

Thanks.

[MrsD]

Train on a step.

If he will not creep when you teach him with something in front of him but he creeps when you remove it - you are removing it too soon .

ETA - I have a problem which is the opposite, when Jarrah heels & I tell him to drop he folds himself backwards to do the drop leaving his front feet exactly in line with my legs, but the rest of his body far behind mine. So what do I do, the dog is in perfect heel position when he's heeling ie his legs in line with my legs, but once he drops he looks like he's out of position & if I teach him to come forward when he drops he'll be out of position on distance exercises.

I think that as long as the dog doesnt actually creep the judge will take into consideration differences in change of movement well thats what my friend whos a judge tells me when I ask her about it )

Edited March 13, 2007 by MrsD

[leopuppy04]

If he will not creep when you teach him with something in front of him but he creeps when you remove it - you are removing it too soon .

Even when he does it reliably with the object there - without fail?? The step is worse - he does it to perfection (I can be anywhere) and will foldback. but will not do it on the ground

ETA - I have a problem which is the opposite, when Jarrah heels & I tell him to drop he folds himself backwards to do the drop leaving his front feet exactly in line with my legs, but the rest of his body far behind mine. So what do I do, the dog is in perfect heel position when he's heeling ie his legs in line with my legs, but once he drops he looks like he's out of position & if I teach him to come forward when he drops he'll be out of position on distance exercises.

Yes, I had this problem with my younger girl and just lured her a little different (pulled her forward). She didn't generalise this to the front as all I think she understood she had to maintain the 'heel' position yet, infront she has to fold-back. Perhaps put another cue on it so that Jarrah doesn't get confused?

I think that as long as the dog doesnt actually creep the judge will take into consideration differences in change of movement well thats what my friend whos a judge tells me when I ask her about it )

I hope so, coz he does it in one swift movement and doesn't take any steps forward except to place himself into the drop. Thanks Mrs D

[Arya]

Okay, I think this must be a really common problem! I've heard lots of different ways to solve it. Had the problem with my girl and I must admit it can appear again in times of distraction (like at a trial, unfortunately!!!). Old habits die hard LOL.

What I did was virtually train a new, different exercise. As well as continuing to work on the Novice change of position from the required distance, I took her aside and worked up close right in front of her again, back to the beginning. I stood her and lured her like a pup. Leaned slightly forward over her body and said 'drop'. She dropped and the second she got the drop correct, I rewarded her and patted her hindquarters, saying 'good drop, good drop'. After a few goes she did actually get how I wanted the drop to be done. Now I know she knows this as when practicing using a schedule of 'successive approximation reinforcement' where you only reward with a treat or other reinforcer when the dog gets it right, she corrects herself when she does it wrong. Now we have progressed to drop, sit, stand all with hind legs superglued to the ground, from the required distance.

As I say though, the old hoppy habit comes back sometimes if we are, say, at trial practice at KCC park sometimes. I'm just trying to be patient...

Hope this helps! Let me know if you try this method and it works for you too. I haven't used it with any of my students so I just don't know.

Hope my idea helps. I tried some of the others but they didn't work for my girl.

[leopuppy04]

Thanks Arya.

Your method works as it is done and dusted . I have already been doing this with my boy and I found that by using a different command ie "park" (as in park your bum), he doesn't get confused. BUT I want to refine the 'drop' as well to reduce the 'creeping'!!!

Thanks for the advice !

I am NEVER EVER going to teach my dog to drop from a sit first again! I taught Kinta the foldback and it has solved sooo many problems

[ness]

One more thing leopuppy which may help with creeping. Toss the reward behind the dog and release him to get it. Or if you can trust him leave a container of food or a toy behind him. If there is a chance that he will be released backwards rather than to you he might creep less.

[leopuppy04]

One more thing leopuppy which may help with creeping. Toss the reward behind the dog and release him to get it. Or if you can trust him leave a container of food or a toy behind him. If there is a chance that he will be released backwards rather than to you he might creep less.

Thanks ness - I've been doing this also as well as tossing the ball behind him.... it works for a DOR (ie: when he is on the move), but not for stationary How weird

BTW - Go to off topic and check out "This weeks funny" - you'll like it

[Cosmolo]

At what point does he start creeping? And what exactly have you tried with him so far?

[leopuppy04]

Ok - watch out this will be long

1. I started teaching him to drop/sit/stand from a table and from a step. Table first, then step. When he did it reliably (ie: 100% success rate) on the table, i'd move him to the stair. When he was reliable there, I moved him to the ground with the object infront of him.... move object away, no luck.... even if I went to a smaller object first

2. I decided to count my losses and re-train. Went back to the basics and lured him into a fold-back drop. Changed command to "Park". He doesn't get confused with "Drop" and "Park"... knows that park means he must fold-back. He is starting to get the idea with this and have only been doing this for a short while. I have not added distance on yet (well maybe 1-2 steps). Will do this fine, but can muck it up a little when I do it 'formally'... I give him a NRM for this. Progressing well.

3. When training No 2, as well as informal DOR stuff (I never train a formal DOR), I would always get him to drop/ park and throw the food/toy whatever behind him. He does a skidding halt usually, which is quite amusing .

4. When I have a toy in my hand (chuck it, kong on rope etc) I may ask him to "go" or "out" to get him to run away from me - when he is a distance I may ask him for some distance control - sit/drop/stand. Does the sit/drop well... Will walk a few steps on the stand.... refining that by reducing distance... again NRM if he moves ANY feet (well other than those he needs to move to stand up ).

The main problem is that he naturally does a 'working dog' drop where he doesn't fold back but 'flomps' - sorta all comes down at once, with a little bit of forward movement.... you know how BC and Kelpies tend to just 'drop' on the spot? Well when he does this, it obviously isn't a problem if he is moving, but when he isn't (ie: distance work) he tends to move slightly forward and flomp. He doesn't actually take a step it is just his way of 'arranging' himself. This was after much work to make the 'drop' a smooth action - occasionally he will do the sit-drop still .

I am worried that this will make him fail the exercise coz he may have moved more than 1/2 a body length . I will eventually incorporate the "park" into the trial system, but wanted to know what else I can do in regards to his 'drop' from a stationary and not make him lose position....

Does that make more sense??? Or are you more confused???

Edited March 14, 2007 by leopuppy04

[Cosmolo]

I might shoot myself in the foot here- but it sounds like your making it needlessly more coplicated than it should be? If you have taught a new command to get him to fold back, why not spend more time on that command and get rid of the drop command completely unless its informal?

Why not get someone else to handle him at a distance to prevent him from creeping when you give the command? What is your drop on the move like with him? From a heel for instance?

[Arya]

Here's another two cents worth

I think that it's repetition. To completely overwrite the unwanted type of drop, you have to do many, many good drops the way you want them. This is why I only reward for the exact kind of drop I want (successive approximation). The percentage of good drops gets better and better this way. However, drop on the move is asking the dog to remember to do the new 'good' drop while thinking about other stuff, like coming in towards you. How about trying to train these drops off the recall but still at a distance? For example, get a ball or toy and throw it, as the dog runs towards you, tell him to drop. When he drops the way you want him to (even if he comes in up close to you), throw the second one. This takes practice but I've got a nice DOR this way. Hardly ever do it formally. Do it all with the ball game. Then throw one in on your recalls now and again and watch what happens. They go down like a stone out of habit.

Just a thought. But it involves a bit of retraining again and takes time.

If you get a lot of skidding forward in the DOR it will help though.

But getting that nice drop from a run is a lot harder than from a change of position position - I'm sure I'm just telling you something you already know LOL

Thanks for letting me know my method works with the patting the hqs though. :D Keep telling us how you go. We all learn a lot from each other!

[leopuppy04]

I might shoot myself in the foot here- but it sounds like your making it needlessly more coplicated than it should be? If you have taught a new command to get him to fold back, why not spend more time on that command and get rid of the drop command completely unless its informal?

Why not get someone else to handle him at a distance to prevent him from creeping when you give the command? What is your drop on the move like with him? From a heel for instance?

Cosmolo I think you are right. I'll keep to the new command - work on improving that to the distance level and go from there. Dropping and maintaining heel position is no problem. He does the drop on the move perfectly. For some reason he just finds dropping from the stationary without 'creeping' is too hard, so changing the command may help.

But it got me thinking, if you get pinned for your dog moving forward into the drop (not taking any extra steps, one clean movement), would he also get pinned for stepping forward into the stand if I were to do that in a distance?

[Cosmolo]

I'd like to see his drop on the move pushed further if you haven't already though- what if your running or playing with him and you give him the command when he is in mid flight? Have you got someone who can handle him at a distance?

[ness]

The answer is teach a kick back stand leopuppy .

ETA If you go look at my sendaway video up at youtube you will see Ness do a kick back stand from a sit. Then silly me gets her to walk forward to set her up :D

Edited March 14, 2007 by ness

[leopuppy04]

I'd like to see his drop on the move pushed further if you haven't already though- what if your running or playing with him and you give him the command when he is in mid flight? Have you got someone who can handle him at a distance?

Not really :D.

I will give a a few things a go on here and report back to say how he is going.

Ness - noooo.... not another thing to re-teach

[ness]

Yeah gotta love all this retraining don't yah. Hell though I have spent only 2 months retraining a 2o/2o contact for agility and for the first time in a trial she didn't miss contacts at the trial .

[leopuppy04]

yay!!!!

darn it - I don't wanna teach a kick back!

I quit - I hate obedience

[ness]

LOL you and me both I am giving up on everything

[leopuppy04]

Hi guys,

Its not the best vid, but I tried last night to get Leo's distance onto a video to show you what I mean. The first one is how he sometimes drops forward (usually with not that much of a step!) and the second how i'm trying to train with the 'park' command! I don't know what is going on with the vid - it wasn't easy videoing yourself, but it seems like I was telling him to do something and he had already done it which isn't the case... for some reason the voice seems to be delayed ... hence the 'wait' and i'm already out of the picture

Anyway - here it is to sorta demonstrate what I was meaning. Just looking at 'training tips' for the creeping only and to know if i'm gong about it the right way as my actual 'formalities' in this vid are waaaay out of the window

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UR1edWr8nEI

ETA - I just watched it again - argh it is so out of synch - it seems like I was telling Leo to "park" when he has already hit the ground and the click comes when he gets up

Edited March 19, 2007 by leopuppy04

[Cosmolo]

Is it your timing that was out or is the sound slower than the video?