Herding Instinct

[Janba]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13trG5gotC4

I would be very interested in herding peoples opinion of this pup. She is 5 1/2 weeks at the time of the video.

The breeder is worried that she isn't grabbing at the rag.

ETA

I am really interested in whether this method is showing anything valid about the pup.

Edited March 10, 2007 by Janba

[Kavik]

I will preface this by saying I am an absolute newbie to herding

But what are they trying to determine with this video/method? Can you determine herding instinct by how a dog interacts with a rag? I will tell you that Kaos is very different with a tug/ball/rag than he was with sheep. I have been doing drive work with him since I got him, and he likes his tug and ball on a string. But with the sheep it was like WOW! Interest plus!

They know that a rag is not alive and a sheep is.

[Janba]

I will preface this by saying I am an absolute newbie to herding

But what are they trying to determine with this video/method? Can you determine herding instinct by how a dog interacts with a rag? I will tell you that Kaos is very different with a tug/ball/rag than he was with sheep. I have been doing drive work with him since I got him, and he likes his tug and ball on a string. But with the sheep it was like WOW! Interest plus!

They know that a rag is not alive and a sheep is.

I think what they are trying to show is how the pups react to movement and to me she is following the movement and reacting to it. The breeders is worried that she is not chasing and playing tug, and therefor will be too soft.

I would much rather it was ducks or chooks than a rag on a stick. 5 1/5 weeks is a little young for sheep.

I don't know if this is a good method so I thought I'd ask other peoples opinions

[mjk05]

I don't think you can tell anything at all at this age, or by this method. Some pups will show good instinctive ability at an early age (7-16 weeks) when first shown sheep, but others won't really switch on until much older. Most of our dogs we'd expect to be starting by 6 months, but overseas many people don't even show their dogs sheep until they are 12 months or thereabouts, and one of the Scottish dogs we have didn't really start to show serious work until about 12 months.

As far as the method goes, nope, I don't think there's any relationship between interest in a rag or tugger and working ability. After all, there's a lot more to working ability than interest in moving objects, and I don't think you can properly assess this in any other context (similarly, a dog's "herding" of ankles, kids, cats, bicycles etc doesn't mean anything with regard to their ability as a sheepdog).

The best indication of the pup's future potential at this age is if they've been bred for this purpose from parents who are well-bred working dogs.

(ETA- I guess there is some basis for looking at a pup's temperament in terms of "softness" by how they react to challenges at this age- but its not 100%. Especially with sheepdogs- some of the softest, quietest, even spooky shy pups we've had have become really strong pushy dogs on sheep, and vice versa. I think a confident go-ey pup is a good choice in general, but it doesn't guarantee them being a strong dog on stock.)

Edited March 10, 2007 by mjk05

[whatevah]

I actually thought the pup may have been worried by the long wooden handle. I would have used a long normal tug, and dragged it around on the ground. In her litter Tia was the first pup to take hold of the tug, but by the time the pups were 8 weeks old, they were all playing tug. The pup is following it with her eyes. I have also heard that pups eye sight is not well developed at this age of 5 1/2 weeks.

[JulesP]

I know absolutely nothing about herding but am interested why you would want a BC to be grabbing hold of the tug. BC's don't traditionally herd by biting.

The puppy is keeping her eyes on the tug, she is moving her body as well. At the end she is stalking the tug.

[stumped]

l have never had a call to go muster someones rags, so l wouldnt use a rag in training, l think the way they move it is not stock like and at best it would show a desire to chase , which most breeds will do, nothing to do with work. Herding is not chasing.

[BCNTC]

uuuhhh I wouldnt say it says anything valid whatsoever... I could take a rag on a stick and get my retriever and terriers to do the exact same thing lol, my younger BC would jump around and try to eat it(she is EXTREMLY soft of stock by the way) and my older BC who is very good on stock(made long time trialers drop their jaws) would just sit there staring at the stick and doing nothing

[Janba]

Thanks everyone. :rolleyes:

This is part of what I got sent by the puppies breeder. The rest is the same, just different pups. The pups bred to work.

I am finding it hard to make a decision based on this and the breeders comments which seemed to rely on how strongly they attacked the rag and equate the strength of the pup with how they tugged.

My way of thinking was that if this was a relevent method, why should a pup who interested in working the rag try to grab it if when they moved toward the rag the rag was moved away from them?

I would have liked to see poultry used, the pups a bit older as well as the pups interacting with each other.

[persephone]

laughing here..our working dogs never have to worry about herding rags, or sticks..in fact they usually never even SEE a rag. they are watched when little, as to how they behave with the poultry and pet goats/sheep, also the maggies who steal their food

the little ones who chase the chooks and annoy the cats, climb over the fence and try and exert "eye" power on the horse are the ones to think positive things of

It is so cute to watch the littlies discovering their "power" :rolleyes:

Oh, and biting, playing tug and or snapping are all definite No-No's!

Edited March 11, 2007 by persephone

[JulesP]

LOL maybe my sooky border might be good at herding then! He drives the cats nuts, is constantly rounding up furry native critters (actually carries them into the middle of the garden, drops them and then 'herds' the poor critters until I rescue them) and he likes to glare at the ponies!

I actually nearly failed part of my obedience exam at dog school because I couldn't get him to play with his toy! Why would any self respecting BC want to play with a toy when all the other doggies were running around! He wanted to herd them all up :rolleyes:

[persephone]

LOL maybe my sooky border might be good at herding then! He drives the cats nuts, is constantly rounding up furry native critters (actually carries them into the middle of the garden, drops them and then 'herds' the poor critters until I rescue them) and he likes to glare at the ponies!

I actually nearly failed part of my obedience exam at dog school because I couldn't get him to play with his toy! Why would any self respecting BC want to play with a toy when all the other doggies were running around! He wanted to herd them all up :rolleyes:

sounds as if all his instincts are in the right place, anyway!

[Vickie]

Janba,

I agree with the others, how it reacts to the rag would have very little relevance to a working style. Cute pup though!

Are you getting this pup for stockwork? If so, I would be more interested in getting videos of the parents working. Do you know each of their strengths & weaknesses on stock? I think most people with working dogs agree that so long as the parents work nicely & were bred to compliment each other's faults & weaknesses, it won't really matter which pup you choose. It's true that some make take more after the dam than the sire or vice versa, but I don't think there is any way of knowing this till they start training. I think the thing is that as long as you can live/are willing to train through the biggest weakness in each of the parents, the pup should be just fine.

[Janba]

Thanks everyone

I have seen good videos of both parents working both in a small area and working a large paddock (distant, but you could still make out how they worked) so that is not a problem. They seem to compliment each other well.

I have a choice of 4 pups and all I have to go on is a video like this of them. This is probably the longest sequence.A video of them interacting with each other and exploring something new would have told me far more about them.

[JulesP]

Are you too far to go look at the pups? Could someone from here go and look at them for you?? I know it is tricky to buy from a photos/vid if you want the animal for a particular purpose.

Is the pup going to be working/working or doing herding trials?

I purchased my pup from a photo! I loved the breeding and was desperate for a pup as I had a very sad pining older border here. I love my pup, he is so much fun, but I couldn't care less if he never makes it in obedience as he is a pet first.

[Kavik]

I let the breeder choose my pup - I didn't even see a picture before I got him!

I told the breeder what I was looking for and trusted her to choose the one best suited to my purpose. I was able to view the parents on the internet. The breeder came well recommended.

[Janba]

JulesP

The pups are too far away to go and look. The breeder has asked one of the local 3 sheep men to have a look at them for me.

I want it for herding and hopefully 3 sheep as well which is what they are bred for.

When I got my current dally there were none close so I looked at litters further away. I got sent some really good videos with things on them that give you a good idea of the pups temperament - like opening an umbrella and putting it down - does the pup run away, come up and investigate, ignore it etc.

I am getting this pup because my current BC is not going to make the grade for herding, but he is also here for life and have great fun doing other things with him