Trialling Question

[leopuppy04]

Yet another question, but I didn't want to distract from my original question in the other thread .

I have noticed varying degrees of 'training' when it comes to trialling. There are some that will train their dogs up to a superb standard before entering a trial ring so that they can pretty much gain 3 passes straight away and then go onto the next level.

Then there are others who enter their dogs in as they are unsure of the level they are at and want to 'see how they will go'. In terms of agility this doesn't bother me, but in obedience it sometimes can, coz i've come across some unruly dogs...

So what do you people go in expecting? How do you train for trialling?

I try and train to well above the standard required for that level as if your dog mucks up, it won't be the diff between a pass and fail.... ie: my dog IMO stuffs up his heeling in CCD, yet still manages to score 24/30....

I used to go in and want/expect a pass, but that caused me to get too stressed, dog to get to stressed, trials became less fun, so now I am trying to have the 'cest la vie' attitude - whatever happens... we pass, great... we don't.... there's always next time. If you go in expecting nothing, you will almost always come out pleased.

I know there are many out there that want to go in and out of classes as quick as possible though so am interested to hear your thoughts

[jesomil]

Interesting question as i know many people differ on ideas with this one.

I personally enter a trial when i know we will have a good chance of placing, not before. The trainer who started me in trials said to me years ago, never enter till you know you can win.

I dont care about winning or losing and my dogs are my beloved kids whatever the outcome, but i will only go in once i know they will be great.

I dont see the point of trialling when your dog is not up to scratch as practise should be done away from the trialling ground, not in the ring. Thats why clubs run mock trials.

[Sayreovi]

After my first few trials, which went horribly wrong because i was that nervous i was shaking LOL i am not going too enter any trials until my dogs are proofed under heaps of distractions which includes me scared s**tless.

Personally i would love for them too pass but i dont expect it so either way if i lose or win i wont have had any expectations on my dogs too pass.

That being said my dogs can do all exercises really well, it is always me that makes us fail :D

Great threads Leopuppy, the training forum had become a little dull lately

Edited March 6, 2007 by tollersowned

[leopuppy04]

After my first few trials, which went horribly wrong because i was that nervous i was shaking LOL i am not going too enter any trials until my dogs are proofed under heaps of distractions which includes me scared s**tless.

How do you proof them to your feelings - please tell me as i'd love to know!!!

Yep - Jesomil... I have a similar theory - I don't enter them until I am certian they are up to 'passing' level... but on the day I have no expectations, as my expectations can add to my stress..... it is only my stress that has caused Leo to fail in the CCD ring.... both times the Judges have said that they were really dissapointed as he was looking great *sigh*. I think it is silly to enter if you are not ready as it can play around with your dog, but how do you *know* when your dog is ready - they can be perfect in training and then because of your stress..... fall apart.... (don't worry, Leo didn't fall apart on me!) put it this way both our passes scored us 2nd place :D

Edited March 6, 2007 by leopuppy04

[ness]

Hmm usually to get me to actually enter a trial requires some gentle prodding :D . CD I entered our first trial to keep a friend company - came away with a quallie and second on countback. Another 2 trials another 2 legs and then another extra trial on a 2 day weekend and 4th leg of our CD.

Open well I had a trip planned to Perth with the intent on catching up with a few friends for some obedience lessons and also to enter some agility trials. I had sent about 30 prewritten entry forms off to the person I was staying with so that they could send in my agility entries for me with theres. Anyway I had been saying that my instructor here thought we were nearly ready to trial so they were like so enter some obedience trials while your here - I was like no way.

Any way about 2 weeks before I went I get an email saying I gave your entry to the trial secretary yesterday evening and since I have paid for you to enter you must at least entertain the idea and no scratching till the day. In the meantime I thought what the hell I would get her to put an entry in for the trial the following weekend as well.

Fast forward another 3 weeks to the end of our first week in Perth. The trial just so happened to be the Perth State Obedience Championships - not like it was a small trial!!! Any way we walked out with our first pass in open from our first trial.

There was 1 more obedience trial before I was due to fly home which I hadn't at that point entered but posted the entry off first thing Monday morning.

Weekend 2 of my trip - second dog in the ring and second CDX pass.

Finally we get to the Friday before I was due to fly home. You can imagine I was pretty stressed thinking wouldn't it be lovely to come home with our title. Ness had been attacked at training on the Thursday night and had since refused to even acknowledge that her DB existed so I wasn't holding much hope.

We got through the heelwork just - she missed every drop prior to the figure 8 but you knew the judge would give you one last chance after the figure 8 - which she did and she dropped . After every exercise the judge would keep saying that I could relax and stop stressing so much now - ROFL. She knew we were sitting on our title. Any way we got through - wasn't great but hell CDX in straight passes out of an interstate trip is nothing to be sneezed at.

So I guess that is a very long winded way to say that I am never sure when to enter and like to have somebody else suggest that we might be ready. We entered in Perth with a lets see attitude. I knew she could do it the question was with what level of enthusiasm in the ring. It wasn't pretty and I learn't so much over there I know if we entered now we would probably do better.

I guess you need to be careful that you don't overtrain the dog to the point where they are bored with it. I think I did wait too long to enter novice and open but I was training by myself and didn't really have anybody to say look your nearly ready or enter and see how it goes.

As for when we get to UD - expectation 3 from 3 on a return trip to Perth . (Just kidding!!!! but a return trip for our first trial is on the cards)

Edited March 6, 2007 by ness

[dogdude]

I think it is a personal thing. An experienced trialler wont usually bother enterering CCD. Most will already know what is expected and enter their dog when it is good and ready.

The opposite usually is the case for newbys because they have no feel for the competition at that stage. They are also champing at the bit to have a go and get involved. The problem lies back with the clubs that dont have enough experienced instructors. The ones that are there love to see as many fellow triallers as possible and they sometimes push the students into entering CCD too early.

Melbourne has a great set up to see where your dog is at by visiting KCC Park on Tuesday nights. They have qualified judges that put you through your paces and give you tips and honest opinion. It costs $5. They set up the rings just like a proper trial. It can also be used by newbys to have a look at other competitors (level of competition).

As I have said before, alot depends on how competitive you want to be. If that is important to you, there is nothing wrong with starting to trial after all your dogs training is completed, including UD.

Edited March 6, 2007 by dogdude

[JulesP]

I don't tend to train above the standard i.e. If doing Novice I only do Novice stuff. I don't start the dog in the level though until I am fairly confident of a pass. I don't go to win, am not that competitive. But good solid work meant my last dog did win. She would have been even better if it hadn't been for Mum shaking all through the trials!

I don't like failing so don't tend to do the 'see how I go' thing.

Last doggy I wanted her CD because I wanted to breed her. My nervousness meant I didn't enjoy trialling much so I did aim to get the CD in 3 passes. Have done alot of horse stuff since then so the nerves are a little better, lol. Training this pup just for fun.

[Vickie]

Another good thread Leo puppy!

My dog was trained beyond Novice level, when I entered Novice. I waited until I knew we were capable of succeeding before I entered games.

I go into agility trials these days with the attitude that I am testing my training. I know I will not win every time, and I hoping for/expecting about a 70% qualifying rate. It is not realistic with a fast dog where a 10th of a second out in my timing will make a difference between Q & non Q, to expect to win/qualify every time. I don't expect this to change throughout our trialling career. So I go in, knowing it is possible & hoping it will happen, but am not devastated if it doesn't. For me there are positives to not succeeding, it means I have identified a hole in our training & have something new to work on.

Some of my most successful runs are non-qualifying runs and some of my ugliest runs are qualifying ones. Guess which ones feel the best? If Now if I see a challenge on course that I have trained for, I go for it, rather than playing it safe. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. If it works I am over the moon, if it doesn't (and often even if it does), I need more training. I am always looking for places that I can test whatever we are currently working on. I am more than happy to forego a qualifier to fix something that wasn't executed correctly. It is more important for me to maintain criteria than it is to win.

Saying that, I will never go in expecting nothing. I always expect something & believe it is possible.

Edited March 6, 2007 by Vickie

[leopuppy04]

I am loving all of the responses..... although we are all different, I like to know what everyone else thinks

Ness - :D get back to work! Methinks that those 70 papers aren't read yet..... I have rung my people LOL.

JulesP - when I mean train above the standard, I don't mean training for open or UD exercises, but rather expecting more.... eg: you want tight, neat UD style heeling rather than CCD heeling and then fixing it up as you go along.... from day 1, I try and get UD standard heeling... or aim for it at least! LOL! Another example would be expecting your dog to hold a full SFE rather than a touch on the back like what is expected for CCD...... longer stays etc,etc..... I always do that.

Vickie - I find it interesting that I have different attitudes to Agility and Obedience. Obedience, I won't go in until my dog is really ready, but I don't go in expecting a pass.... In agility I go in when I think my dog is ready (note: think!), but also don't expect a pass.... but if your dog is on the borderline, i'll still enter - I guess coz it is not half so stressful, and even if your dog is ready, mistakes can still be made!

Edited March 6, 2007 by leopuppy04

[dogdayz]

I think its hard to enter without expectation, i train mine above requirements but i know my nerves will play a huge part in the final performance, to the point we may fail. Certainly with my collie i dont look at the scores until the end, i know her stays are iffy (she wont leave the spot just change position), and it would just make it worse if i went in knowing she could pass.

Last year we were doing tracking and did not expect too much success with her, and had her entered in multiple trials, when she passed one we upgraded. Suprisingly she turned her best track ever in at that trial though not trained for it, and a couple of weeks later did the same when upgraded to the next level, and Im sure its because i went in with the attitude, we didnt expect to be doing this but what the hell, we may as well take our chance. Removing my expectation or desire for a pass helped hugely. I know on a couple of occasions i have thought she isnt going to start a track, and just as i reach the point of turning to the judge to say we wont be doing it, she has suddenly shot off. The nerves communicated down the lead is enourmously underestimated.

Im interested to see what happens later this month in herding tests. We gained our second pass for our PT title last weekend, Im going to enter the same class later this month, and see what happens when the pressure of needing the pass is gone.

[dogdude]

Basically what I tell students is, go along to a trial, watch the top dogs in the higher classes and think about each exercise while training, picture the perfect recall, heel pattern etc and work towards that picture.

Start to ask all the right questions off as many people as possible on how to achieve each little step on getting there. Once you are about 90% there, you are more than likely going to have a winner. Many people tend to think that if their dog is sloppy at certain things that its a dog peronality problem. Most are caused by lazy handlers.

Also going along to mock trials will give you personally heaps of confidence in your own movements for a real trail, which in turn will provide even more positive vibes for your dog.

When you are in trial training, always get someone else to watch your personal movements, or video yourself. I have all the confidence in the world but still shudder to see some of my bad habits in training. Be brave and post your training up on DOL, you will get plenty of constructive criticism here.

Edited March 6, 2007 by dogdude

[leopuppy04]

I think its hard to enter without expectation, i train mine above requirements but i know my nerves will play a huge part in the final performance, to the point we may fail. Certainly with my collie i dont look at the scores until the end, i know her stays are iffy (she wont leave the spot just change position), and it would just make it worse if i went in knowing she could pass.

SNAP! I have the same problem, but I know whether or not they are sitting on a pass without looking. Add to that the fact that I can't stand not knowing! LOL!

Another question: Has anybody found that their dog has done much better in the higher classes than when they were in the lower classes because they enjoy it more?

Dogdude - what breeds do you have? I'd love to meet you!! Videoing does help a lot - especially to see how nervous we really are!!! LOL! I have been able to fix up so much from videoing, but now I have lost my videoing buddy

Edited March 6, 2007 by leopuppy04

[dogdayz]

Leopuppy; i have the advantage of always being a pessimist, so whenver we finish heeling i assume we have failed, as i have considered her to be out of position or slow sitting etc, so am alwys shocked to see a high heeling score

[wylie]

I trained my guys well above the level expected in obedience. By that i mean they were doing some UD exercises.

Same went for tracking with corners and length of time tracks had been laid. The more difficult the better it was.

My girl enjoyed CDX far more than CD which was as boring as hell to her. Her CDX passes were much higher scoring cos she was happier cos she got to do things she liked to do.

As for my boof head male, well if there was someone in the next ring they were always interesting to watch hence lots of lagging. He always worked brilliantly in training but he just had to be a sticky nose at trials.

He eventually got his CD after 13 efforts and lots of laughter from me, judges and spectators.

[mjk05]

For me, it depends on the activity and the dog.

Obedience- I enjoy training for it, for trialling really stresses me out, so I've only ever trained and trialled looking specifically for a pass, or at least an indication of what I need to work on to get that pass next time.

Agility- I used to train (and train and train) to get the best out of my dog/me- basically to give us the best chance of winning, I guess. In trials, I'd at least expect to do something really well, and success was defined mostly (to be honest) by going clear and at least placing.

Now my attitude has sort of done a complete about-face. I only trial in agility because the dogs and I enjoy it, and I don't really care whether we go clear, and definitely not win/place. I don't even mind if my dog/myself are grossly underprepared for the course. That sounds bad, but I don't get to train much, and as long as the dogs don't get demotivated or stop enjoying themselves, I don't mind if we mess something up (or everything up). That goes mostly for my current dogs, who are either old/semi-retired, or not really agility material- and only get entered very very rarely. I have a couple of young dogs coming up to training that I think might be competitive, and I'll probably take a more serious approach to training them, and try to make sure they are well-prepared before going in the ring.

Sheepdog stuff- I get super super nervous again, but that's partly because my dogs are pretty underprepared. I enter them because I enjoy working them, and its an interesting chance to see what we need to work on, but I hate putting them in situations where we can't cope. So I guess I'd be better off spending any extra training time on this sport.

Interesting topic.

[MrsD]

Leopuppy; i have the advantage of always being a pessimist, so whenver we finish heeling i assume we have failed, as i have considered her to be out of position or slow sitting etc, so am alwys shocked to see a high heeling score

:D we must be related dogdayz, I think the same thing, I often would come out of the ring disappointed with the heel position on a turn or a slow (to my mind) sit etc & be astounded to see an extremely high score for heeling. I am by far my most harshest critic :p .

when I mean train above the standard, I don't mean training for open or UD exercises, but rather expecting more.... eg: you want tight, neat UD style heeling rather than CCD heeling and then fixing it up as you go along.... from day 1, I try and get UD standard heeling... or aim for it at least! LOL! Another example would be expecting your dog to hold a full SFE rather than a touch on the back like what is expected for CCD...... longer stays etc,etc..... I always do that.

That is exacty the way I train leopuppy, I expect my dog to work at a high standard from day 1 & dont accept shoddiness. Same with my handling - if for some reason I get into a bad habit or muck something up I expect my instructor to point it out to me (& most of the time they will!). Im not a beginner & I dont expect to be treated as one. Some people dont take criticism well & think it's personal, to me it's something I need to know, because it's the only way I'm going to be the best. And when I say "the best" I mean the best I can be, not necessarily better than someone else - I never go into the ring expecting to win, but I do strive to improve on what I've done before. Sometimes that doesnt happen, sometimes it all comes together & it does & other times I will be able to see improvement in one particular exercise, even if for whatever reason my dog has blown another exercise or worked badly on the day. My aim is to get a high score & for me to be happy with our performance, not necessarily win (if that makes sense).

As for the OP question, I wont trial until I think we (as a team) are capable of that high score. I entered a trial that was on last Saturday but I chose not to go because I wasn't happy with his work. It would have been his first trial at 15 months old (but I've only owned him since the beginning of December) & he would have probably qualified, but that wasn't my aim, so I chose not to go.

On the other hand I see a huge percentage of people who are happy to go in the ring "to see how it goes". I think I mentioned this in another thread, but Dagboy & I stewarded for my friend who's a judge a couple of weeks ago - she was so appalled at the handling & standard of most of the dogs & handlers that she told them all to go home & read their rule books & not to enter a trial until they knew what they were allowed & not allowed to do .

I guess I am lucky, the club that I trained at for many years was extremely dedicated to trialling - we had specialized trialling classes twice/week & a weekly evening for ring runouts all of which was overseen by an extremely experienced senior judge who gave freely & generously of his time to make us the best we could be if we wanted to take his advice .

Edited March 6, 2007 by MrsD

[Lablover]

At retrieving trials, I expect to win, place.......at the very least finish.

Train smart, work hard, read the dog, gain confidence as progression and experience helps. Spend money training with the best LOL LOL.

Look at the great handlers/trainers. They know their dogs and more often than not, are so focused, can help the dog so much, especially at obedience trials, which IMHO, are ..........ummmmmmmmmm, easy. Running for cover now!!!!!!

[t(AD)pole]

WOW good timing for this topic.

Im currently deciding if I want to enter Abbie in her first agility trial later this month. I was originally planning for her first trial to be in April but I want to enter her in one run only so I can see how she go's.

So basically i've got the "I dont care how she goes" attitude- as long as she doesnt run out of the ring!!

[J...]

I agree t(AD)pole I'm also deciding which trial to enter my dog in for CCD... first ever trial for both of us. I'll get to see my 1st ever obedience trial this weekend at Warrnambool (I'm stewarding ). My instructors encouraged me to enter this trial on home territory but not having seen a trial before I decided to wait. I would also prefer that Darcy be at a level where I can be confident as opposed to entering on a "suck it and see".

Another question: Has anybody found that their dog has done much better in the higher classes than when they were in the lower classes because they enjoy it more?

Absolutely leopuppy, I was not really intending to trial in obedience (well not yet anyway) but my instructor pointed out the constantly wagging tail on my dog in class the other day (he referred to her as "the energizer bunny")... of course I never watch my dogs tail in class, so never twigged that she was in fact really enjoying it. Nowhere near as much as she loves agility but its good to know its not boring her stupid! But yes she is doing much better in the higher classes.

Edited March 6, 2007 by feralpup

[whatevah]

With Moses, I waited for the new rules to come in. I want him to be at a level where I am 200% sure he is going to pass. I also want him to be having fun. When I entered my first CCD trial, I won the ring, I also passed my 2nd and 3rd CCD trials, and Moses was the first dog in Victoria to get the CCD title. We then competed in Novice and got 3 straight passes and even managed a first and a second. I think when you put your dog in a trial they are under a bit of pressure, so to reduce that I only trial if I think I am going to pass. Also I don't think it is fair on the other dogs if your dog cannot do the stays and wants to run laps around the ring. So I want my stays to be very solid. Where I train, I train my dogs off lead from the start, so I have to work on their focus from the word go. I didn't aim to win the ring, just mainly to get a pass. If I waited for Moses to be perfect I probably would never have trialled, as putting the work in too get the perfection can make the whole thing very boring for the dog.

I have had people tell me to enter agility with Moses but I didn't because I wanted to wait till he had nice solid contacts, but have since found out agility gives him a sore back.

With flyball I also wait until my dogs are 100% ready before entering the first comp. I take my time and gradually build up into little steps. At Hastings they only train with one lane set up, so in Moses's 2nd comp he stuffed up by checking out the ball in the 2nd lane. Josh has only made about 2 mistakes the whole he has been doing flyball.

With retrieving I put Josh in after being told to at the flatcoat retrieving training day. At the comp he hadn't seen a dead pigdeon before nor had he heard a gun going off over his head. On the day he went really well and only stuffed up because he didn't pick up the pidgeon he was looking for his toy. I have also had people tell me that Josh's talent is wasted on me. He has very high retrieve drive.

At my club testing day is every 4 weeks, I only test my dogs if I think they are ready.

At club and after training when we let our dogs run around off lead I notice some dogs doing the zoomies sometimes I think this is releasing stress. Okay so flame away.

Edited March 6, 2007 by CrashTestDummy