Dogs 'burning Out' In Training

[leopuppy04]

Question for you all:

Many of us are saying that if we start training too young that the dog burn out - what do you think causes that?

I am asking this as I think that no matter what age we start training, if we don't push them, go at their pace and keep training fun.... why should they burn out? Shouldn't they love to learn all the time? Shouldn't they want to work on the pretense that they *might* get that reward? If we keep teaching them new things throughout their lives in the way of tricks or perhaps extentions on the sit/drop/stands..... wouldn't training always be fun for them no matter what age they started?

I'm really curious to the answers as I think that if trained at their own pace, no matter how young you start (and that may mean that some have done more with pups by a certian age) the dog should never burn out - if they do, I think we should re-look at our training techniques and perhaps their reward schedule.... have we made it too 'boring' for them.... or rather have we got bored of training that one particular dog??

[Vickie]

I agree with you Leopuppy,

I don't think dogs trained too young will necessarily burn out & many don't. So long as training is kept fun and you are not asking for things the dog is not ready for there is no reason why burn out should happen.

...but...I think...

there is nothing to lose by waiting to start training & a lot to gain

different dogs mature at different times & will be ready to train at different times

a dog will tell you when they are ready for training in a number of ways

many people are not capable of recognising this in an individual dog

there is a temptation to set goals based on age, rather than maturity

there is a reason that physical & mental maturity often happen around the same time

there is a temptation to set goals based on what your last dogs did, rather than what your current dog is ready for

people don't always recognise signs of stress, eg sniffing as a sign their dog is not ready and is being asked for too much

people settle for good performance, rather than wait for excellent performance before moving on

people do not recognise the potential for difference in motivation & motivators between different breeds or breeding

dogs learn differently, in different ways & at different speeds

it is easy to be influenced by a training partner/s & cut corners in order to progress at the same level

it is easy to get caught up in the thrill & addiction of competition & move to the next level before you are ready

there is far to much emphasis placed on being the first or the youngest dog to achieve goals

it is extremely easy to get frustrated if your dog is not meeting your expectations & very hard to hide this from your dog

people don't realise that "life" training is far more important than competition & will help competition enormously

there is a tendancy to treat your 3rd or 4th dog as a commodity rather than a companion

dogs need a break every now & then. We don't work 52 weeks of the year & neither should they have to

dogs will learn A LOT quicker when they are ready to learn than if they are being pushed too early

there is a tendancy to handle a young like like you would an older one, forgetting that they do not yet have the experience

it is easy to overdo specific things with a young dog, simply b/c those things were an issue with your last dog

I am sure there is more these are just some ideas off the top of my head. I am happy for people to disagree, this is just my opinion.

Vickie

[poodlefan]

Leo to me it's not starting too young that's the issue (you should start training the day puppy comes home) but putting too many demands and too much pressure to "perform" too young.

You see dogs being treated a bit like some kids.. . the equivalent of using "flash cards" and "brain gyms". It takes time for the brain and body to develop in both children and dogs. Too much pressure and stress too young is not good.

The key I suppose is knowing how much and when a puppy can learn what you want to teach it. That's a combination of experience and reading the dog in front of you. I also think that having a good training instructor/mentor can keep your expectations grounded in reality.

After all, most of the training issues dogs have come from the handler. Often it's the handler who has to reflect on why the dog is not "getting it" rather than blaming the dog - an all too common reaction to training challenges I'm afraid.

[Cosmolo]

I think it will always depend on the dog that you are dealing with. I trained Cosmo to what i consider to be an advanced level by the time she was 6 months old. She was reliable on and off lead and had excelent stays- out of sight etc. She also did scent detection and basic assistance dog work because i was doing the course at the time.

I had a number of people tell me i was doing the wrong thing but i felt i knew my dog well enough to recognise if there were issues and there never were. She loved training as much as i did and i made sure we did alot of purely 'fun stuff' for her as well so i think she had a terrific balance. I was in a fortunate situation in that i wasn't working a great deal so we spent alot of time together- it wasn't as though all the time we had was spent training. I see some problems that occur the other way round- a young dog being held back when it should be pushed further to maintain interest, excitement and motivation- these dogs often lose interest in training and by the time they get to the next level, they are bored and unmotivated- which begs the question, chicken or the egg? Does the handler get bored and less motivating for being held back first or does the dog?

[leopuppy04]

:D :p Ok... now that we are all in the same thread ;)

:p

I just copied and pasted to start a new thread too!!

I think you raise many good points vickie!

there is a temptation to set goals based on age, rather than maturity

Yes, even I have been caught out in this because I want to be good at what I do. I sometimes look at others who have dogs with multiple titles at 1-3yrs and think.... but I haven't got *any* yet. What we fail to realise is that maybe that person has far more experience than you (lol - I'm still on my first dog!), or maybe they are not doing it for the fun of the sport but for the ribbons. Once I got my head around that, I tend to cease looking at what others are doing as a 'challenge'. The challenge is between me and the individual dog i'm handling ;)

people settle for good performance, rather than wait for excellent performance before moving on

So true, especially if you start out as 99% of us do, at an obedience club. Instructors (particularly volunteers) either don't have the time or the knowledge to set high standards for you and your dog as a team - near enough is good enough.... so it turns out that you have a lot of 'fiddly' bits to fix when the time comes for trialling.

people do not recognise the potential for difference in motivation & motivators between different breeds or breeding

Not only that, but the advantages of having multiple motivators for each dog. I like to vary between food, toys and games with me. It may sound obvious, but how many of you actually *do* use it to its full advantage? I know I didn't..... but when you do, the response, I have found is far better.... even if you dog does do *anything* for food (I have a bottomless pit at home!), he can work better for toys most of the time

there is far to much emphasis placed on being the first or the youngest dog to achieve goals

well human nature does saythat we have to be the best at everything :D

it is extremely easy to get frustrated if your dog is not meeting your expectations & very hard to hide this from your dog

set small goals and you find you will get there faster - as the dog is always meeting your expectations..... I am sooo guilty of this too ;)

people don't realise that "life" training is far more important than competition & will help competition enormously

Yes, this I agree with. With my boy - I was soo excited about *finally* having a dog to train to competition level, I wanted to go,go,go.... lucky for me, I also had just as much desire to do 'social' things with him too. Now, I have the attitude that the first 12 mths are for *fun* and basic training... once they are mature, then we can get serious.... which is why i'll always like to have a 'competing'' dog.... otherwise my feet will get too itchy!! LOL!

there is a tendancy to treat your 3rd or 4th dog as a commodity rather than a companion

So true - which is why we always need to look at 'why' we want the next dog - as a companion or as another training dog..... although I think you can work with both ;)

dogs need a break every now & then. We don't work 52 weeks of the year & neither should they have to

Very much so - even though my dogs LOVE training, I like to give them a break over xmas time... when clubs are shut. It gives them a nice time to relax... as much as wel love our hobby's, we do need a break from them every now and then.... and at the end of the day, they are learning at training..... so their brains do need a chance to revive!

there is a tendancy to handle a young like like you would an older one, forgetting that they do not yet have the experience

Yes, this is true - I have fallen into this unintentionally simply because I 'forget' which dog I have.... I also found that because I got Kinta as an 'older' puppy... I was expecting more, despite the fact she had no formal training..... when I got my head around that, we moved forward in leaps and bounds.

I still stand by what I originally said though - if you train correctly and do it at your dog/ puppy's pace, no matter how early you start, they should always be eager to learn and willing to train.

[leopuppy04]

I see some problems that occur the other way round- a young dog being held back when it should be pushed further to maintain interest, excitement and motivation- these dogs often lose interest in training and by the time they get to the next level, they are bored and unmotivated- which begs the question, chicken or the egg? Does the handler get bored and less motivating for being held back first or does the dog?

Yes, THAT is what concerns me Cosmolo - I am sick of hearing from people, particularly 'off the street' owners who say that their dog is 'just a pup' and they will worry about the training later! BUT when the later comes the dog is such an unruly mess it is more difficult to train! Now I KNOW that this is not what everyone here is saying and we all agree that 'social' training (both in socialisation sense and the correct social behaviour) should begin from day 1 - when we tell people not to take training too seriously for the first x mths and just 'let the dog be a pup'.... this is often the case.......

Having said that - starting training with Kinta at 6mths and moving slowly has really reaped the rewards as opposed to starting at 10wks. Addmittedly my memory is rusty, I can't remember how quickly Leo picked things up.... quick, but not as quick as Kinta... but I don't know if that is their temperament differences or training differences.... Leo is still super-eager to learn, but perhaps holding him back would have made him more-so.... who knows?

[poodlefan]

Vickie:

there is far to much emphasis placed on being the first or the youngest dog to achieve goals

I couldn't agree more. I agree with all your points Vickie. Horse people know the importance of spelling an animal from competiton and training. That's a foreign concept to a lot of dog people.

Edited March 5, 2007 by poodlefan

[Tassie]

Wow - so many good points here - maybe this should be a sticky.

I come from a viewpoint that my dogs are my companions first, and we do the training stuff for fun (- OK, the life stuff is for real, but the competition stuff is for fun). And that I want them to still be enjoying 'stuff' and competing as long as they're physically able. My previous Border Collie competed in his first Jumpers trial in 2001, when the heights changed to make it possible for him to compete at reasonable jump heights. He was 12 years old - and we had a blast. (I caused a 3 refusal DQ by turning him too tightly onto one jump, but he still went under course time - not bad for an oldie.) He was still trialling in UD, so was jumping regularly for that.

So I guess I tend to under-push myself and the dogs in terms of major successes - but then that's not what I'm about with my dogs.

[jesomil]

With my first trialling dog, she had her CD at 1yr then her CDX 6 months later. I waited for her to be at a high level and she placed with every pass.

I trained her basically from the day i got her and spent alot of time with her. I had alot of spare time back then .

I think it has alot to do with the dog and the trainer/ methods used. I used completely fun training and didnt put any kind of pressure on her till before we started trialling. She lived for her training as she got food and toys etc.

There was certainly no burn out and she was still as eager to learn when she was 10. I did a heck of a lot with this dog - obedience, agility, flyball, tracking, schutzund, PAT, trick training and even dabbled in a bit of herding with her.

I dont think it would be possible to have burn out with fun training but i think you could quite easily burn out a pup applying too much pressure or using harsh methods.

You have to work at the individual dogs pace and stay within the capabilities of the handler.

[leopuppy04]

great post jesomil

[Sayreovi]

people do not recognise the potential for difference in motivation & motivators between different breeds or breeding

Ohh yes i was guilty of this, i had a food driven dog and figured Darcy would be the same that was until i learned about TID and my god when he is in drive he is a pleasure too work with LOL

it is extremely easy to get frustrated if your dog is not meeting your expectations & very hard to hide this from your dog

Thats why i have no expectations of when i want the exercise too be solid. Sure i would love too trial with either of my two but if it doesnt happen it doesnt happen no biggy

there is a tendancy to treat your 3rd or 4th dog as a commodity rather than a companion

Gee i hope that doesnt happen too often, each dog should be treated like a companion as a much loved pet not another dog too put titles on.

dogs need a break every now & then. We don't work 52 weeks of the year & neither should they have to

Agreed, like Leopuppy mine are on break over Christmas and pretty much most week days LOL They have a pretty laid back life at the moment.

there is a tendancy to handle a young like like you would an older one, forgetting that they do not yet have the experience

Guilty of this too when Darcy was younger :D

I still stand by what I originally said though - if you train correctly and do it at your dog/ puppy's pace, no matter how early you start, they should always be eager to learn and willing to train.

That is true but there is no need too go over board, even if the puppy is eager too learn, let the puppy be just that, a puppy.

Honestly i dont see the rush of training everything young, Nova is 4 and only just starting too compete in sports and i trained him a fair bit when he was young so i think i burnt him out in obedience. Now we are getting back into it after about 1 1/2 years break and he is happy and excited about it.

Darcy was an air head, a typical puppy with a 3 second attention span. I decided too let him grown a brain and try again in about a year. It turned into 2 years but he has such a high drive and willingness too please, i couldnt be happier with how he turned out.

Should add after reading other posts, i dont think anyone doesnt train a puppy at all i am talking about doing full on obedience training.

Edited March 5, 2007 by tollersowned

[MrsD]

I agree with you Leopuppy,

I don't think dogs trained too young will necessarily burn out & many don't. So long as training is kept fun and you are not asking for things the dog is not ready for there is no reason why burn out should happen.

...but...I think...

there is nothing to lose by waiting to start training & a lot to gain

different dogs mature at different times & will be ready to train at different times

a dog will tell you when they are ready for training in a number of ways

many people are not capable of recognising this in an individual dog

there is a temptation to set goals based on age, rather than maturity

there is a reason that physical & mental maturity often happen around the same time

there is a temptation to set goals based on what your last dogs did, rather than what your current dog is ready for

people don't always recognise signs of stress, eg sniffing as a sign their dog is not ready and is being asked for too much

people settle for good performance, rather than wait for excellent performance before moving on

people do not recognise the potential for difference in motivation & motivators between different breeds or breeding

dogs learn differently, in different ways & at different speeds

it is easy to be influenced by a training partner/s & cut corners in order to progress at the same level

it is easy to get caught up in the thrill & addiction of competition & move to the next level before you are ready

there is far to much emphasis placed on being the first or the youngest dog to achieve goals

it is extremely easy to get frustrated if your dog is not meeting your expectations & very hard to hide this from your dog

people don't realise that "life" training is far more important than competition & will help competition enormously

there is a tendancy to treat your 3rd or 4th dog as a commodity rather than a companion

dogs need a break every now & then. We don't work 52 weeks of the year & neither should they have to

dogs will learn A LOT quicker when they are ready to learn than if they are being pushed too early

there is a tendancy to handle a young like like you would an older one, forgetting that they do not yet have the experience

it is easy to overdo specific things with a young dog, simply b/c those things were an issue with your last dog

I am sure there is more :D these are just some ideas off the top of my head. I am happy for people to disagree, this is just my opinion.

Vickie

What she said ^^^^^^^^^^^ :p .

Leo to me it's not starting too young that's the issue (you should start training the day puppy comes home) but putting too many demands and too much pressure to "perform" too young.

You see dogs being treated a bit like some kids.. . the equivalent of using "flash cards" and "brain gyms". It takes time for the brain and body to develop in both children and dogs. Too much pressure and stress too young is not good.

The key I suppose is knowing how much and when a puppy can learn what you want to teach it. That's a combination of experience and reading the dog in front of you. I also think that having a good training instructor/mentor can keep your expectations grounded in reality.

After all, most of the training issues dogs have come from the handler. Often it's the handler who has to reflect on why the dog is not "getting it" rather than blaming the dog - an all too common reaction to training challenges I'm afraid.

And what she said too ^^^^^^^^^^^ :p .

Leopuppy, I dont think anyone is saying not to train or that keeping it fun isnt going to get you where you want to go, to me there is a difference between training a puppy steadily to do things at a rate that is suitable for the dog & setting expectations at a realistic level & pushing your pup to do a new thing every day & then being upset with it when it gets confused or seems to take too long to learn something.

I think you also have to look at the training methods to see what the "shutdown" (for want of a better word) is going to look like.

Jesomil compared to some, CD at 12 months & CDX at 18 months is positively ancient, sounds like you & she did fine .

[Lablover]

I do not feel a dog (the old high drive, sound nerves, line LOL), with good training burns out. Correct diet, vet care/health, and LUCK with injuries helps as well.

Many often than not, say at obedience clubs, the owners become bored. Also most attendees do not wish to trial.

Short, frequent, consistent and good timing training sessions are BEST.

[Erny]

IMO "burn out" is really when, although the dog has 'learnt', the trainer doesn't build on what has been learnt (ie proofed) sufficiently ......... so it all falls apart further down the track.

[sas]

This is a great post.

My deilma for a puppy coming home soon is that I want to compete in agility....puppy is a Great Dane, we unfortunately don't have the luxury of waiting until later as we need to gain confidence on ground level equipment as by the time puppy is 6 months old he'll be much taller than a tunnel as he'll need to learn how to move through non-jumping obsticles as he grows so he learns how to bring his body through them.

Nothing will be pushed on puppy, although I'd love to do well, puppy is a companion first and if we do well in other areas then that's a fantastic bonus.

I guess I've been fortunate having foster dogs because I've learned a lot from them in regards to how much can be too much, it's of course individual per dog however it's been a great learning curve in prep. for pup.

Edited March 6, 2007 by sas

[Guest Clover]

What Vickie said .

there is a temptation to set goals based on age, rather than maturity

Yes that is seen alot. There was a slight push with Elvis to be up and running at Flyball asap after his first Bday.. i was in no hurry, and either was the dog. And i have noticed in the past couple of years clubs have had young dogs entered that are clearly not ready to compete .

people do not recognise the potential for difference in motivation & motivators between different breeds or breeding

I learnt that early on, Clover is very much into food.. offer Elvis food at Flyball and he spits it out, his motivation to run is to run again :D. Harri loves his little food rewards at the moment and play. Tinny's motivation is to run again and B.A.L.L.S.

people don't realise that "life" training is far more important than competition & will help competition enormously

Of course start some sort of training from day one, but i dont think a pup needs to know how to do everything at a young age.

[Lablover]

Yes........but.............IT DEPENDS.

After all, dogs - regardless of age, sit, drop, stand, rest (stay), etc on their own naturally.

Tricks and higher standards when controlled/channelled by us, is simply an extension.

[whatevah]

Here are some puppy video links.

http://www.puppyprodigies.org/VideoClips.htm

These pups are learning service dogs tasks. There are pups tugging at 11 weeks old and opening doors, pulling off socks, loose lead walking. Really amazing stuff. Pups are aged from 4 weeks to 6 months very cute.

What do you think about this?

I wonder when Moses will burn out??? As Scope and Chicken Wingz will tell you, he begs me to do work, even at social events he blocks out all the other dogs and wants to work.

I think you need to set foundations, and train your puppy before they develop bad habits such as pulling on the lead, barking out of control. I spent a lot of time getting Tia socialised to noises and other dogs, different types of people. It has paid off too. I also believe that a dog coming when called should be started when you get your pup home. I see other borders her age with issues, such as timidness of people and dogs. So flame away.

[leopuppy04]

Yes........but.............IT DEPENDS.

After all, dogs - regardless of age, sit, drop, stand, rest (stay), etc on their own naturally.

Tricks and higher standards when controlled/channelled by us, is simply an extension.

I'm confused lablover - what was this post referring to? The OP?

[k9phoenix]

I like to build the foundations for the dogs future work/sport at an early age. I also like to give them breaks, time to be just a pet, a dog and so forth, it also forces the handler to step back observe and interact with the dog on its level - not your own expectations/ego, which aids in moving the training to the next level. Training puppies is fine, as long as you make time to allow the dog to be a puppy, adjust your methods to the puppies ever changing personality and use puppy training to build a nice foundation for furture tasks. For example, assistance dogs start their training at 8 weeks, they learn that slippery floors, lifts etc are not scarey and that "gift giving" gets rewarded. My detection dogs start training as pups, they learn that by showing interest in the scented article recieves a big fuss, a game and turns mum into a vending machine!!!!!! Agility dogs can start early too (not with the jumping stuff) Tie flappy things up in the yard/training area (tarps, tin cans, balloons etc) get them to walk on different surfaces(tin,plastic,planks etc) - basically all the little things that later on on you wish youd speant more time on rather than rushing the dog to master the next obsticle.

ETA They WILL burn out if training is not fun, and they are pushed to hard, each dog has his/her own limits - learn your own dogs thresholds and no matter how tempting, dont push too far - let your dogs mental and physical abilities set the pace and have fun - if its stressful - stop, and go play at the beach!

Edited March 6, 2007 by WA_dingo_trainer