Major Surgery For My Little Dog

[montall]

My little 10 month old Chinese Crested had a fall last week and when I took her to the vet it turned out she had a problem with her hip. She appears to have what is probably Perthes disease which is a crumbling of the hip and she needed surgery. She also has a luxating patella so that was operated on at the same time.

The prognosis for this little girl isn't good long term and obviously I shouldn't be thinking about breeding her because both these conditions are probably genetic. She has now been speyed as well. The vet bill was horrendous and I don't even want to go there and it isn't over yet not by a long shot.

My question to all of you is this. As I only bought this little girl three weeks previously and the breeder who sold her to me knew that I intended to breed her to my registered male (she is registered herself incidentally), do you think she had some responsibility to help out with the vet costs, or at least refund part of the purchase price. I bought a dog to breed and maybe even show if I chose to, and now have a dog who isn't suitable for either.

She is a lovely little dog and I am happy to keep her as a pet for as long as she is reasonably comfortable. We will cross whatever bridges there are to cross when they come up, but I can't help but wonder if the breeder was aware of this and that is why she sold her. She denies that of course, and I have given her the benefit of the doubt for now, but still think that an ethical person would at least have offered some help when I asked for it. My reasoning is that with this condition it was only a matter of time before she incurred this sort of expense herself and now she has avoided that, as well as making some money on what was in effect a defective dog.

I know that I have buckley's chance of changing her mind, but I wondered what you all thought. Am I being unreasonable to expect some help given that I only had the dog three weeks before all this happened.

[cowanbree]

As a breeder I stand behind my dogs 100% but I am afraid if I sold a dog that had a fall and injured her hip I would want proof it was a genetic disorder not just it may be. If the dog was fine at my house and you openly acknowledge she had an accident it sounds very suspicious as I am sure you can understand if you were looking at it from the other side

[wylie]

Sorry Cowanbree

But Leggs - Perthes in small breeds is very common. The hip joint just disentegrates and most breeders are well aware of it as it usually appears to start hindering the dogs movement between 6 and 12 months.

It is one of the questions I ask of toy breeders as hip scoring would at least give a clear indication at 12 months if it was to occur later.

As for PL if a breeder is not aware of how movement is affected when a dog has PL then they should get a vets opinion as there are varying grades.

Have a look in the toy ring and those that have skippy jumpy movement you will find have some sort of issue with PL.

It would be absolutely wonderful if some of the toy breeders took on more health testing in their chosen breeds rather than sticking their heads in the sand.

And I will be breeding my Papillon shortly and she has had exactly the same health testing as my Borders and Aussies. I have been riduculed by toy breeders and i still stand by my decision to HD and ED and PL and eye test her.

Edited March 2, 2007 by wylie

[montall]

Tallulah had this skipping motion that you mention but I had never heard of Perthes disease so didn't take a lot of notice. Until the fall she seemed fine but obviously I was only observing her for three weeks. The vet felt that there would have been some sign of lameness from time to time just from the patella if not the hip. He is convinced that it was a pre-existing condition or injury just wasn't prepared to swear it is perthes although he was pretty sure that was what it is. He just hadn't seen it in Cresteds before. The x-ray showed that the hip wasn't injured as such, more sort of crumbled. It is even possible the hip just dislocated when she attempted to jump up on the lounge. That was all she was doing incidentally jumping up and somehow fell. I thought she had missed her footing or something. No one was more surprised than me when she ended up so injured. I thought for sure that she would just have bruised her leg or something. It should have been no big deal. My other little guy tumbles all over the place without any problems, although I am paranoid about him falling now as well because his pedigree has much the same prefixes as her and there could be a disaster just waiting to happen there as well.

Edited March 2, 2007 by montall

[wylie]

Montall

Do yourself a favor and ask the breeder of your boy some serious questions in regards to PL and Leggs - Perthes.

Then do some more serious research on the internet about both conditions.

If you are serious about finding out if your boy has even the slightest possibilit of having Leggs- Perthes get him hip xrayed between 9 and 12 months.

Find a decent vet who deals with toys and breeders and get his patellas checked annually

He should also be PRA tested i believe as there is a DNA test available i believe. Annual eye checks are also a good idea

Edited March 2, 2007 by wylie

[montall]

Thanks wylie, sounds like good advice.

[MTD]

you poor thing . Legg perthes is not a nice disease at all. Very serious and the breeder should know once you are 100% it is it

At first my vet thought Maggie had legg perthes She had a second lot of xrays taken 4 weeks after the first . The difference appearently in 4 weeks of the hip joint is very obvious. Thank goodness Maggie didn't have it as there was no change in the joint. ( HD Instead).

Have you seen a specialist if not it would be the first thing to do and get an accurate diagnosis and go from there

All the best for you and Tallulah

[montall]

The breeder has been told that there may be a problem and I would hope that she would not breed her dogs again without having them properly checked out, but I strongly suspect she already knew about this and that is why she sold her. I have no proof of course but one thing is for sure she knows now that there may be a problem with her dogs. Even if it isn't perthes (and I hope like hell it isn't, but the vet is pretty sure it is, and so incidentally is another breeder I talked to) the luxating patella is a problem in itself. So all I can do is tell people to be careful who they buy dogs from and maybe it might be a good idea to check with the Queensland Chinese Crested Club to get further information about reputable breeders. God knows I wish I had listened to them. I thought I was smart buying a cheaper dog but I guess in the end you get what you pay for. I thought she was cheaper because she wasn't a puppy anymore. Lesson learned the hard way.

[sandgrubber]

How awful for you and your girl!

This sort of post usually appears in the Breeder's Forum (you might want to re-post it there). The responses are overwhelmingly in support of 'check up on the breeder' and 'hold the breeder responsible for what they produce'.

If you bought on Main Register and it was clear that you were looking for a dog suitable for breeding . . .particularly if you paid a premium price for 'show quality' or the equivalent . . . the breeder is culpable.

[Steve]

O.K. First ,if you only bought this dog three weeks previously before any treatment you should have contacted the breeder .

Second , you cant just say 'probably Perthes ' the breeder needs a definite diagnosis .

Third in any case like this the breeder will need a second opinion. At law it is up to the breeder to replace, refund or repair and you took it off to your own repairer after the dog has an accident , contract that repairer to do the repairs for a large amount of money and dont involve the manufacturer until after the repair work has been completed .Now you want the breeder to pay -

Normally the breeder would make good because you purchased the dog and now cant use it for the purpose for which it was intended but now the dog has been desexed and treated without speaking with the breeder this could get very messy. At law the breeder will have to pay at least some if its proven it had a problem before sale.

Fourth , the breeder needs definites to be able to make informed decisions regarding her breeding program and cant make these effectively with "probablies" . If it is Perthes' this will have a huge impact but it needs to have a defiiite diagnosis.

For anyone else reading this post .

Breeders insure your dogs as they leave your property , this is a free policy available to all breeders via Ford Kinter and gives free cover for 6 weeks and covers anything which isnt in evidence at time of sale.Its as simple as activating it via the net as the dog is leaving your home ,takes 2 mins to do .

Buyers' ,especially those who have dogs which may develop problems like this , either take up the offer and pay the $120 to insure the dog for the first 12 months or pay another insurance company to cover you.

Breeders Even if you dont use a puppy contract at the very least put in writing what you expect to happen if there is a problem .

Buyers , ask the questions and ask for the breeder to put in writing what they expect to happen if something like this happens.

[montall]

Hi Steve,

I'm not even going to bother to answer your points one by one. I get what you are saying. All I have to say is that I couldn't leave the dog in serious pain while I got into a dispute with the breeder. As far as I am concerned the dog comes first. I will cop it sweet that the breeder isn't going to help out and I never really expected anything different. I was just interested in what other people thought, that's all, and you have told me what you think. That's your right.

I still say though, that even if she didn't know before that there may be a problem, and I am only saying 'may be', she certainly knows now and I would hope she looks into it further before breeding any more poor little dogs and condemning them to a life of pain. So people it comes down to buyer beware I guess.

And finally, I think it is a crying shame that for some people the breeding of dogs has to be looked at in a legal light and insurances taken out as if they were pieces of merchandise rather than living breathing creatures. What the hell is the world coming to.

[tramissa]

I get health insurance for myself. I don't consider myself a piece of merchandise.

Why would someone give up their entire breeding program on a 'maybe' from someone they don't know who admits they're not sure?

You admitted that you tried to get a 'cheap' bitch to use as the foundation of your breeding program. Did you ask about health testing etc? See test results? You state that this problem should have been obvious, therefore should it not have been obvious to you prior to purchase? Caveat Emptor.

I do feel sorry for your bitch, and I do think that the breeder, once the problem is actually identified, not supposed, should chip in to help out with fees.

[cavNrott]

.

Edited June 7, 2009 by cavNrott

[MTD]

Though I won't comment on your situation, I found the breeder of my pedigree girl was not at all interested in the health problem my dog suffered. However I didn't expect anything of her apart from advice and concern. I considered the pup to be mine when I brought her home and had no desire to obtain any contribution to vet costs, after all this dog was my dog and my responsibility so there was no reason at all for the breeder to cease contact.

The only reason I contacted her was to inform her of the problem as according to the orthopaedic surgeon it was certainly hereditary. The breeder was relatively new to breeding and as it turned out, the Dam had the same problem.....I have never heard from this breeder since and she seems to have disappeared. She did breed this dam again, I heard.

I have a wonderful dog who is everything I could have ever wanted in a dog so I'm happy, the dog is healthy now and all is well. Pity the breeder went to ground though. Some emotional support would have been nice.

Exactly the same as I feel with my baby. I informed the breeder just to let her know . I never blamed her . I never expected any money, or replacement just acknowledgment and possibly a sympathy pat and some advise which I never got . The only difference is my breeder is well known and has been breeding for years . When I got my puppy I did sign a piece of paper saying that the breeder takes no responsiblity for heriditary diseases.

I will add that my dog has the best temperament and I absolutely adore her and will do everything possible to make her life as painfree and as happy as I can.

Edited March 4, 2007 by magthedag

[Jed]

Montall

I'm not even going to bother to answer your points one by one. I get what you are saying. All I have to say is that I couldn't leave the dog in serious pain while I got into a dispute with the breeder. As far as I am concerned the dog comes first. I will cop it sweet that the breeder isn't going to help out and I never really expected anything different. I was just interested in what other people thought, that's all, and you have told me what you think. That's your right.

But, in the case where there is a problem, which MAY be hereditary, it is a good idea to involve the breeder prior to spending any money or taking any action.

As a breeder, I would "make good" - but I would expect to know before any vet work is done, and I may want to get another vets opinion. Because I trust my own vet, and he is familiar with my breed. Then I would want to discuss with the owner what is best for the dog. I might refund the purchase price, I might give another dog - it would depend on the situation, and what would best suit the dog, the owner and me.

By not informing me, the possibility of me helping is vastly reduce.

I still say though, that even if she didn't know before that there may be a problem, and I am only saying 'may be', she certainly knows now and I would hope she looks into it further before breeding any more poor little dogs and condemning them to a life of pain. So people it comes down to buyer beware I guess.

Me too

And finally, I think it is a crying shame that for some people the breeding of dogs has to be looked at in a legal light and insurances taken out as if they were pieces of merchandise rather than living breathing creatures. What the hell is the world coming to.

I often wonder that myself!! But, if you look at a situation like this from the point of view of an ethical and responsible breeder, this is something the breeder never wanted to happen. And the question would be what would the best option be to have a favourable outcome for all parties.

Magthedag

The only difference is my breeder is well known and has been breeding for years . When I got my puppy I did sign a piece of paper saying that the breeder takes no responsiblity for heriditary diseases.

Holy smokin batshit!!

When you buy another one, please see me first, and I'll send you to a breeder who will take responsibility for hereditary diseases. I can't believe that

[cavNrott]

.

Edited June 7, 2009 by cavNrott

[sandgrubber]

There is another reason to contact the breeder. Although there are scum bag breeders out there, there are also scum bag vets . . . and a lot of well-meaning vets who didn't learn everything they needed to know in their short time in vet school. If a breeder has had experience with a particular problem they will, if approached in a calm manner, often be able to give guidance as to how to most effectively (and economically) diagnose and treat the problem.

[Toohey]

When I got my puppy I did sign a piece of paper saying that the breeder takes no responsiblity for heriditary diseases.

That's just disgraceful. I guess you'd run a mile from that breeder knowing what you know now, hey Magthedag? Or from ANY breeder who even hinted that they would not help out should any hereditary issues arise.

Perhaps some breeders think that testing their breeding stock absolves them from responsibilty should any possible hereditary problems arise?

Edited March 4, 2007 by Toohey

[MTD]

When I got my puppy I did sign a piece of paper saying that the breeder takes no responsiblity for heriditary diseases.

That's just disgraceful. I guess you'd run a mile from that breeder knowing what you know now, hey Magthedag? Or from ANY breeder who even hinted that they would not help out should any hereditary issues arise.

Perhaps some breeders think that testing their breeding stock absolves them from responsibilty should any possible hereditary problems arise?

Yes.

Unfortunately I didn't know about DOL when I was looking for a breeder. Since being on here I have learnt so much . What questions to ask ect and what to expect from a breeder and breed . Just because it isn't common in your chosen breed does not meen it does't happen. I know that things can happen it isn't cut and dry when it comes to HD and that is why myself would never blame anyone for the disease but you do expect some advice , help ect from the breeder and acknowledgment that yes it has occured in one off her puppies ( or more as I have learnt).

My own vet wouldn't give me the diagnosis although he knew it was HD he prefered me go to a specialist which I did for confirmation.

But in the end I look at it as if Maggie was chosen for me as I am in the position to be able to take care of her and give her the best care to make her life comfortable and happy. She may have gone to someone who is unable financially and time wise to do this.

Edited March 4, 2007 by magthedag

[montall]

For those of you who showed interest in the welfare of little Tallulah here is an update.

She is back from the vet this morning with her stitches out finally (they weren't healing as well as we hoped and didn't come out last Friday when they were supposed to) and the bucket off her head .. woohoo. She has healed nicely but will need supplements to help with the repaired patella joint. There is a course of injections available but they are pretty expensive and he doesn't think she really needs them at this stage. He suggested that I might get some osteoease active tablets (that people use for arthritis) from the chemist and give her a bit of that every day to help with the joint. The hip doesn't have a joint anymore and it is just a case of getting her to use the leg a bit more, because she hasn't been using it much. Although as soon as she came home and the hated bucket came off she went for a bit of a run with Monty and was using all four legs. That made me happy, and he was so happy he started doing his zoomies. She just sort of trotted behind, way way behind . If you have ever seen these little dogs doing zoomies it is awesome. I once tried to take a video of Monty but he was so fast I couldn't keep him in shot, all I ended up with was a picture of my backyard minus dog.

Oh and the other good news is that she is eating a bit better now and has even put on a bit of weight since he saw her last Friday. I was concerned that she wasn't eating properly (that hated bucket again) and had lost a bit of weight. She has now had a bath (she was starting to smell like corn chips ) had her hair washed and combed and is flat out, like a lizard drinking, beside me here after her little run. So hopefully it will be all clear sailing from here on in. Keep your fingers crossed for her that perthes (if that is indeed what it is) doesn't raise it's nasty head again and she gets to live a good life.

Thanks to those of you who showed interest and support ... Leonie.