silvercons Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 Hi all I'm new to this forum, I've been going through a few threads and you guys seem pretty generous with your time and advice! My dad adopted a 13 week Mastiff X girl, Bella, from the RSPCA around Xmas last year whist I was living in Melbourne. I came down to Sydney for 2 weeks during the Xmas break and my OH and I took her out for daily 20-30mins walks, took her to a few parks, on a few car rides, basically trying to expose her to as much as we could. But since then she hasn't really had too much training (she does sit when we present her bowl) and my dad has been pretty ignorant about exposing to much more than the backyard and daily 15 mins walks... *sigh* I am now back in Sydney. I really want to ensure I have a well adjusted and respectful dog so I had just enrolled her in a beginners obedience class to start on 6 March. I have been teaching Bella sit, come, down and stand and only beginning heel (she is still tugging on the lead but it is getting a tiny bit better) and stay since the 5 days I have been in Sydney. Bella hasn't been socialised with other dogs (other than those she may have encountered at the RSPCA) so I am a little afraid of how she will react when she sees a class of them. We have seen a couple of dogs this week at the park and she was super keen (her stance was rigid and she was making a bit of noise) to approach them, I didn't allow her to since the other owners didn't seem to want us near their dog ;) Bella is now 6 months old and 20 odd kilos and I'm about 48 kilos...She currently only uses a flat leather collar and I was wondering if I should invest in a metal slip collar so I have better control of her. Are there any brands or types (if there is such a thing) I should be considering? Its a long post I know but I wanted to give you all as much info as I could Thanks in advance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamuzz Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 How about a martingale? They have a little section of chain and give you just a bit more control plus they are difficult for a dog to back out of. If you take a look at the Black Dog page you can see pictures of their training collars. I know at our local dog club they sell training collars so you could turn up with your dog on a flat collar and then buy a training collar if you thought it necessary. My dog to weight ratio is like yours, so I know what you mean. For the ultimate in control - think power steering for dogs - check out prong collars on the K9 Force page. Steve is very helpful, and I have found my consults with him to be worth every cent. One of my dogs is fine on a flat collar and one has a prong. Different methods work for different combinations of dogs and their handlers so don't be afraid to try a few things until you find what works for the two of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 Would you consider getting a private lesson with a professional trainer before you go to class? That would give you a head start on good training methods, and would also help you interpret your dog's behaviour around other dogs before you "throw her in the deep end" with a group class. If I lived in Sydney I'd book a personal consultation with Steve from K9force without hesitation, but if he has a long waiting list or you can't travel to him, then I'm sure there are lots of other good trainers in the city that DOL members could recommend to you. I personally wouldn't put your dog in any kind of correction collar unless you have an experienced instructor to help you use it properly. You need to make sure that the correction is timely and fair, and also make sure that she associates the correction with her own behaviour and not simply with the presence of the other dogs (or she could become nervous or aggressive when she sees strange dogs). Good luck with your training! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvercons Posted March 2, 2007 Author Share Posted March 2, 2007 OH NO!!! I took Bella for a walk today, everything was going fine, and she was not tugging on the lead as much. Then a dog came up to Bella, they had a bit of a sniff of each other and then Bella jumped on the other dog, she put her paws on top of the other dog's head/shoulder. She didn't growl or bite so I thought "okay maybe she will calm down" but after they both started jumping on each other, I decided this could get out of hand and PULLED Bella off the other dog after about 3 seconds. Then on the way back home she saw another dog being walked and again she lunged. I didn't give her the opportunity to get on top of this other dog, I was concerned that something bad might happen to Bella or the other dog. I had to drag her for 10 metres until she calmed down and we went straight back home! It was embarrassing to say the least! I am now more concerned than ever about taking Bella to the obedience class next Tuesday night. I have written Steve from K9 force an email... I really hope we can correct her problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 Don't panic. As you say, by the sounds of it Bella didn't exhibit signs of aggression. Rather, what she did was antagonistic behaviour signalling her dominance over the other dogs. Yes - this could land her into trouble if the other dog objects and choses to rise to the challenge, so you are right to prevent her from doing this. You definately will benefit from some private tuition. This will help you understand your dad's dog much more clearly and become less strung up and frantic when you're out walking (which in itself sends the wrong message to the dog). In the meantime, as you don't yet have the confidence to calmly handle matters whilst out, try to avoid times/areas where there are likely to be other dogs. Practice obedience and have play time in the back yard if this chops down outside walking opportunities, whilst you're waiting for your consultation appointment with Steve. For getting onto this quickly and for not dilly dallying and blindly or blithely experimenting until matters escalate to mammoth and seriously dangerous proportions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 (edited) Changing to a check chain type collar won't give you more control, what you'll need to do is head to an obedience class and learn how to use your nominated training aid/tool Edited March 2, 2007 by sas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pit Man Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 This is always a tricky one. If you keep denying contact she will remain in puppy like mode much longer. Dogs teach each other boundaries. She needs to learn if the other dog objects then she is taken away. Not scolded as she would see that as resulting from the other dog. A check chain would help you control her, don't know if a haltie would fit this breed properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvercons Posted March 3, 2007 Author Share Posted March 3, 2007 thanks for all the advice so far. Bella and I have been working on basic commands and she is starting to learn how to fetch I have called the obedience club and went on for about 5 mins about Bella and her encounters with other walking dogs. The trainer said that the club has leather & chain check collars and head haltis available and I should bring Bella 30min before the class so I can discuss with the trainer which might be best for her. She seemed confident that I should take Bella to the class on Tuesday night so she can learn how to interact with the other dogs. Fingers crossed! I hope I don't have to drag Bella back to the car in tears after she lunges at a 5 month old silky terrier! I will keep you all posted on her first day at school Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvercons Posted March 8, 2007 Author Share Posted March 8, 2007 Hi again Just wanted to let you all know how Bella and I did at the obedience class on Tuesday night. What can I say except that Bella did what I 'tried' to instruct her to do about 5% of the time, the other 95% of the time she was waaaayy too focused on the other dogs. My arms and shoulders were definitely given a work out big time. I didn't have a great time with the trainer either, I think his methods are too old school for me. I saw him demonstrate the knee jerk when what looked like a 6 month old lab jumped him. He then proceeded to do the knee jerk to Bella 4 times! I have to say I wasn't impressed. In the 1.5 weeks since I have been in Sydney I have got Bella to stop jumping on me by merely turning my back to ignore her, a great feat I think for a 6 month old pup who has probably jumped on my mum and dad a thousand times. Also when I removed Bella 5ish metres away from the group so I could refocus her, the trainer asked me to rejoin the class! I did, but thinking back I think I should have just said that she needed some time out to refocus her attention on me. Anyway... I have got in touch with a one on one trainer who is more in line with how I think dogs should be trained. She believes in a gentle approach that addresses the cause of Bella's excitment and not her symptoms. She thinks that in a 2 hour session we should be able to get a 50% improvement, and I should be able to work on the other 50% with perhaps 1 other follow up session with her in a couple of weeks and she believes we can achieve all this on a flat collar as she doesn't believe in check chains.... She suggested we either bring in the next door neighbour's dog (the excitable Lucky) or we go back to the training club and ask them if we could train on the same grounds but away from the group. There are about 5 groups training in that park, they are grouped by their level, but I wonder if the old school trainer (assigned to the beginners class) would take it as a slap in the face if I brought my own trainer in??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 silvercons, its unlikely that the club would allow you to bring in your own trainer. The clubs i have trained at or seen would not allow it as it can be confusing/ conflicting for their other members. Does the trainer have any dogs of their own that they could perhaps use? I would hesitate to use the neighbours dog as well, i don't think two excited out of control dogs is the easiest situation for your dog to learn in. It does concern me a little that the trainer has said to you that everything will be able to be achieved on a flat collar before even seeing the dog?? I never tell people over the phone exactly what equipment, technique will be used as it depends on the dog. Its fine to have a preference for a technique, but what will the trainer do if the flat collar turns out to be unsuitable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvercons Posted March 9, 2007 Author Share Posted March 9, 2007 silvercons, its unlikely that the club would allow you to bring in your own trainer. The clubs i have trained at or seen would not allow it as it can be confusing/ conflicting for their other members. Does the trainer have any dogs of their own that they could perhaps use? I would hesitate to use the neighbours dog as well, i don't think two excited out of control dogs is the easiest situation for your dog to learn in. It does concern me a little that the trainer has said to you that everything will be able to be achieved on a flat collar before even seeing the dog?? I never tell people over the phone exactly what equipment, technique will be used as it depends on the dog. Its fine to have a preference for a technique, but what will the trainer do if the flat collar turns out to be unsuitable? Oops I probably should have said that I had called her to explain the situation and then she came over to do a free 15 minute assessment of Bella. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddii Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 I'm not sure about the use of a check chain and really can't suggest I have anything other than a very limited understanding of my own dog's behaviours. The one thing I would like to offer is that the single best piece of advice anyone has given me is to take responsibility for your own dog's welfare - physical and EMOTIONAL. You are undeniably doing the right thing by getting Bella in to training, but unless the trainer is making you feel comfortable or at least can demonstrate/convince you that an uncomfortable situation will improve with perserverance then you should get your dog out of there. You said as much yourself - you aren't happy with the physical nature of the training and feel it is not in the best interest of your dog - find somewhere you are comfortable and stick with that. I'm not saying avoid the issue, just find a way/club/trainer to deal with it that you agree with - if you are not confident in the methods being taught you won't embrace them and they won't work. Most of all look after your dog - if you don't want your dog treated in a certain way then don't let someone else subject her to it. It took me a while to get the confidence to tell others with more experience that I wasn't happy with the way they handled my dog, but I now won't take a backward step until I either understand what they have done and why or I have resolved the issue. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SALTWOOD Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 (edited) Hi, Just thought I would add is that there are lots of obedience clubs in Sydney which I am sure you can locate an alternative club via the Royal NSW Canine Council. It may take you a little time to suss out another club whose methods suit you better and it may mean that you have to travel a little bit further but I would recommend that you try to take your dog to a recognised obedience club. Whilst it is possible to train your dog at home with the help and guidance of personal trainers, books, etc. but at some stage you really need to be able to socialise your dog and get it used to being well behaved when other dogs are around. Check chains when correctly used can be a valuable training aide, martingale collars are also good but you need to work out the best ones for you especially as you are only a small person and you have a large dog to control. Oh, and as far as the 95% bad behaviour goes when you first start obedience classes with your dog, the behaviour does gradually improve the more you train and the more classes you go to - even when it does seem overwhelming at times. We have all gone through that, I know I go through it every time I train a new dog and they are all different!! Edited March 9, 2007 by SALTWOOD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaz Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 First have to say that Steve at K9 force is great. Would really recommend you try his methods. Prong collar has worked for my boy. Where are you located in Sydney? Maybe there is a Doler living close by who could help by socialising your dog with theirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvercons Posted March 10, 2007 Author Share Posted March 10, 2007 First have to say that Steve at K9 force is great. Would really recommend you try his methods. Prong collar has worked for my boy.Where are you located in Sydney? Maybe there is a Doler living close by who could help by socialising your dog with theirs. I'm in the Fairfield area and I would love to meet some DOLers who have happy and willing dogs to help socialise Bella especially if the training club I first went to doesn't agree to let me to train Bella on the outer rim with a one on one trainer She just hardly ever gets to see other dogs that she gets so darn excited! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvercons Posted March 10, 2007 Author Share Posted March 10, 2007 Hi, Just thought I would add is that there are lots of obedience clubs in Sydney which I am sure you can locate an alternative club via the Royal NSW Canine Council.It may take you a little time to suss out another club whose methods suit you better and it may mean that you have to travel a little bit further but I would recommend that you try to take your dog to a recognised obedience club. Whilst it is possible to train your dog at home with the help and guidance of personal trainers, books, etc. but at some stage you really need to be able to socialise your dog and get it used to being well behaved when other dogs are around. Check chains when correctly used can be a valuable training aide, martingale collars are also good but you need to work out the best ones for you especially as you are only a small person and you have a large dog to control. Oh, and as far as the 95% bad behaviour goes when you first start obedience classes with your dog, the behaviour does gradually improve the more you train and the more classes you go to - even when it does seem overwhelming at times. We have all gone through that, I know I go through it every time I train a new dog and they are all different!! Thanks for the reference to Royal NSW Canine Council. I definitely want Bella out there socialising with other dogs but I thought it would be best to learn how to do that with some guidance from a professional one on one trainer before she is is surrounded by too many distractions. I would love to take her out when I can feel comfortable that she is focused at least 60% of the time on me and the task I set out for her. It just seemed like that particular instructor's (at the school) solution for everything was popping leads (hard) and jerking knees on dog's chest when they were misbehaving...I don't want Bella thinking that she has to be afraid of me cuz I am constantly jerking her lead, I really want to address the problem of her excitable nature. She really is lovely but at time she just seems like she has had too many glasses of red cordial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvercons Posted May 13, 2007 Author Share Posted May 13, 2007 Just wanted to update you all and let you know that Bella is doing better and better each week since joining a new obedience class, they are fantastic there. The volunteer trainers are invaluable in telling us what EXACTLY needs to be done, down to the steps to do round about turns. My OH has stepped in the meantime to train Bella during classes since she still has the occasional tendency to still (play) lunge at the other dogs in the class (she's 1/2 my weight already!), but we are happy to say she is getting things such as heeling and she is a gem at staying. Bella is now super excited when she sees us open the car door since it means she gets to see her new doggie friends, but she doesn't get to go in unless she stays and then we praise "good" and release her with "okay!" hehehe. I must commend Steve from K9 Force on his invaluable article on the Triangle of Temptation (TOT). I have been doing it before her dinner and her bone/treats ;) I'm so proud of her, she knows how to interact with the little dogs; bows down to smell and greet them and with the dogs more her size; she gets to wrestle with them during the break Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted May 13, 2007 Share Posted May 13, 2007 Good work silvercons ;) , it is good to see how you have progressed with the training of Bella through this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted May 13, 2007 Share Posted May 13, 2007 Thank you for re-visiting with your feedback. Manytimes threads are born as a result of troubles/queries and it isn't all that often that the OP comes back to let us know results or progress (whether applied through advice via DOL or not). Glad things are beginning to head in the right direction and that you are enjoying your training activities. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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