How Do You Get Into Dog Sports?

[shoemonster]

I don't think you can decide so early, for instance, Eddie didn't even like tennis balls until he was about 14 months old, we would throw them and he would just look at it, and say "you threw it, you get it" We tried to train him to fetch it anyway, but there was just so much reluctance I thought that my dreams of flyball would never come!

Now some of you have seen him recently with a tennis ball Bit of a difference

[J...]

I agree shoemonster, stuff that I gave up on when Darcy was young because she clearly didn't "get it" and along the way its suddenly just clicked into place. Retreive was the same - started out as a game of "I've got it, you come and get it". Now at 15 months she has one of the best retreives in my class, if not the club.

Back to the main topic, I started introducing Darcy to everything I possibly could as a young pup. If she tried something she got big praise, even if it was just to check something out. Tree stumps, log seats, old tyres, any sort of (safe) obstacle I could find. I started her in obedience as a puppy, and in basics agility as a 6 month old pup. Worked a lot on her drive and focus, and kept up with the positive attitude to everything. Also TOT from a young age to work on the control. She will try new stuff at agility class with no problems, because she gets big rewards for the attempt. I still do obedience with her, now its getting more challenging she's enjoying it more than she did in earlier classes, even gets the tail going for most of the class

[2tollers]

I don't think you can decide so early, for instance, Eddie didn't even like tennis balls until he was about 14 months old, we would throw them and he would just look at it, and say "you threw it, you get it" We tried to train him to fetch it anyway, but there was just so much reluctance I thought that my dreams of flyball would never come!

Now some of you have seen him recently with a tennis ball Bit of a difference

Yep he's keen. Todd didn't show much interest in retrieving a ball until he was nearly 2. You don't know till you try.

[Sne]

Todd didn't show much interest in retrieving a ball until he was nearly 2. You don't know till you try.

That's what I'm hoping for *fingers crossed*...Ranger has his moments when he likes tennis balls, but its mostly about the thing moving really fast that he can race after (and my is he fast) and pounce on. Currently shows no interest whatsoever in bringing it back though

[MrsD]

Okay flame suit is now on, bring it on. Err Moses is not the only dog I have trained. I have also trained Josh in flyball, and obedience. A German Shepherd, Sheba and a golden Retreiver, Hymie. If Nova is so smart how come it took 3 years to teach flyball?

If you're going to compare every new dog to the smartest (read easiest to train) dog you ever had, then of course you will be disappointed every time.

There are breed differences in every dog one trains, and then there are personality and drive differences within particular breeds. Probably the thing you battle most with is overworking a puppy who is shutting down. That's why she appears 'dumb'.

I'm not sure why you need to have every new dog do every single exercise and trick in the book, as early as possible?

Mel.

I have to agree with Mel .

And just because a dog is harder to train than another dog doesnt mean it's dumb & shouldnt be trained, does it?

ETA - at just 5 months of age, most puppies would be doing first level obedience classes & be starting their training - you've "done it all" with Tia, found her lacking & are writing her off *shakes head*

Edited March 3, 2007 by MrsD

[ness]

Your spot on Mrs D - if I had wanted to take the easy option I wouldn't have persisted with Ness to get her to the point she is at. She would have been left to be a couch potato. Just because its harder for me to try and get her UD title doesn't mean we aren't going to try - even that is in 3 years time - we had a huge up-hill battle to get through open and as it happens UD is coming together better then her open did. Sure its going to be a while before we are in the trial ring to trial standard but she is enjoying herself. Just goes to show sometimes early on you might think the dog isn't enjoying it only to persist and find the dog start enjoying themselves .

There are any number of reasons why a dog regardless of breed may appear dumb but surely that doesn't mean we should right them off totally at such an early age. My experience with BCs is that a lot of them appear to be quite sensitive and yes they can go and go and go and go but if for whatever reason they don't get it they just switch off. The other thing I find is that you can go away from a training session thinking the dog hasn't got a clue and then 2-3 weeks later you might try another session and find the dog has just got it. Sure its the same for all breeds.

[Lablover]

Poor CTD. Make negative comments, and us mere humans, will jump to our chosen breeds defence.

All the same, gundogs are the best LOL LOL LOL.

I would be very interested to meet Tia, all the same.

Edited March 3, 2007 by Lablover

[Vickie]

I have to work 5 times as much as most other people to produce the same result. I cannot talk to the breeder as he said to me he is not a dog trainer and the dog is a product of your training. (doesn't really help that answer). But herding seems to come to her really quickly so why fight an up hill battle. Just go with what the dog is good at.

Border Collies mature differently and "take" to things at different stages/ages. My 4 have were all ready to start training at different ages. They are different dogs and deserve to be treated as such. Many sheepdog trainers don't even think of training their dogs till they are between 12-24 months of age as they don't believe they have the maturity for it. Shine is 9 months & has only recently indicated to me that she is ready to start training. It has never occurred to me to write her off as unsuitable for anything because she is not. She is just a baby. I have enjoyed bonding with her, playing with her & building our relationship. Now that she is ready for training, things are progressing very quickly, mostly because she trusts me & we have a great relationship. I am in no hurry, Trim didn't start agility trialling till she was nearly 2 & neither will Shine. It is amazing how much quicker they learn when they are ready.

What you are doing with Tia on sheep at the moment is not training & I'm not sure how you can compare it to any other form of training. I don't think you are in a position to judge whether she is good at it yet either. You are just letting her do what many puppies would do if placed in that situation and it is very different to trying to teach specific behaviours.

Sorry if I sound crabby, but I am. You have received a lot of advice from a lot of very knowledgeable people, telling you to slow down with this puppy. One minute you seem happy with her & show us all the tricks she has learnt and then in the next breath, say that she is not progressing quick enough. Honestly, I can never work out whether you really like her or not. I just find it very upsetting.

Edited March 5, 2007 by Vickie

[poodlefan]

I agree with you Vickie. One of the worst and most damaging trends in dog sports is owners putting more and more pressure on increasingly younger dogs. Some dogs are now washed up physically by 5... incidentally the age where dogs started slower are only just starting to peak.

I can think of a few competitors dogs that are simply getting slower and slower - clearly they are either sore or sour.. it's not fun for them any more.

You have to let a pup BE a pup and play. Yep you can teach focus and control but I shudder when people tell me how they have their babies doing flat contacts etc.

I recall a notable English obedience trainer saying that no dog should be in formal competiton before the age of 18 months as they just don't have the emotional maturity to handle it.

What's the rush?

Edited March 5, 2007 by poodlefan

[dogdude]

If all of the "knowledgeable people" realised that CTD was mearly expressing her personal thoughts out loud, (and not asking for your opinions), then I might consider you "knowledgable"!

Training is a personal thing, it is her dog!

I can't believe how many rude people are suddenly appearing in the training forum!

If it bothers you so much to read what others think about training their dogs, why read forum posts in the first place?

[Janba]

Vickie

I have just started my young BC (about 20 months) in agility and the rate at which he is progressing is amazing because he is maturing and ready to work. His owner just has to improve her handling skills to keep up.

His obedience is the same - he is only just ready for me to start to put a bit of pressure on him in training and get ready for competition.

I agree with Poodlefan - what is the rush?. If she doesn't make it to competition till she is 2 or 3, she will still have years of competition life ahead of her.

[leopuppy04]

I agree with you Vickie.... in some sense. I believe that it is important to do some 'basics' with a puppy, but I have found that Leo picks things up a LOT faster now at the age of 2 than he did when he was younger. But is that because of previous training or things 'clicking'.... i'll never know.

Kinta is eager to learn, only starting training at 5-6mths and even then all she has learnt is sit/drop/stand and recall. Is she smarter, more switched on from the beginning or is it because she wasn't trained until later?

BUT, I have seen CTD dogs work and they enjoy what they do. It is up to her how she wants to train her dogs and if it works, why change. All of her dogs are willing to work and don't seem to be 'burnt out'.

Again, all she did was make a statement - it wasn't a blanket BC thrashing.....

[Vickie]

If all of the "knowledgeable people" realised that CTD was mearly expressing her personal thoughts out loud, (and not asking for your opinions), then I might consider you "knowledgable"! Training is a personal thing, it is her dog!

I can't believe how many rude people are suddenly appearing in the training forum!

If it bothers you so much to read what others think about training their dogs, why read forum posts in the first place?

Sorry I don't agree. She has chosen not to make it personal, in fact she has made it very "public" on a number of lists where she has repeatedly asked for advice & then and ignored it when it was given. If she was not interested in feedback for all the "problems" she has with the pup, then I doubt she would post so much in so many places...what would be the point if you don't care what people think?

The thing that drives me crazy is that most of the clips I have seen, the pup looks great, very eager & has a large repertoire of tricks. I am not questioning methods, just the unrealistic expectations & the bad attitude that has been constantly expressed from day 1.

I have every right to be upset about the way she represents my breed, I have every right to be public about the fact that her expectations are unreasonable and every right to let others reading it know that putting this much pressure on a puppy is not appropriate.

Edited March 5, 2007 by Vickie

[dogdude]

Personally, I think that training a young dog will not put it in any danger of "burning out", unless your training methods are sub standard. There are many dogs that obtain their UD titles at around 1 year of age or shortly after. If the dog is not working happily, the training methods are obviously not working.

True, alot of dogs seem to "click" at around 2-3 years of age in the trial ring, but I think that its not only an "age thing", but a confidence issue, not necessarily linked to maturity.

Most handlers dont start training their dogs until around 6-12 months of age. It then takes them time to learn how to train the dog, then more time to get interested in trialling. By the time they, and their dogs get confident in what they have been taught , they are in the 2-4 age bracket. Many have not been socialised from a young age, and of course that slows down the level of focus needed too.

[poodlefan]

Dogdude:

There are many dogs that obtain their UD titles at around 1 year of age or shortly after.

Perhaps you mean CD? I've never heard of any dog gaining a UD at one.

I've seen plenty of dogs that had a CD at one that the wheels came off shortly after. If you don't have really really solid basics and you haven't got a rock solid relationship with the dog, more pressure and a higher degree of difficulty can bring the whole pack of [training] cards down.

[Sne]

Getting back to the original topic...

Is there anything I can work on with my dog that isn't necessarily 'formal' training, but something that would help him down the track in agility. He's too young to do any jumping at the moment - but are there other things (aside from having a good recall) like going through tunnels or such that I could do now?

I don't want to push him too much at the moment, just really focus on getting his obedience to a level I'd like before I start anything too serious. I'd just like something small that isn't 'boring' obedience, that can introduce him to the 'idea' of what agility is?

(I'm terrible at wording what I want to ask)

[dogdude]

Hi Poodlefan:

I am refering to EddyAnne's Cavaliers. Some of them obtained the title of Obedience Champion before they were 18 months old. Had their UD titles shortly after turning 12 months. I have heard of others.

I guess my point is that if the pup seems happy to do the work, and enjoys it, then surely it cant be doing any harm.

[leopuppy04]

There sure is - there is a website (can't remember it, but someone might) about tricks that may help agility.

I'd certianly start by teaching them targeting (both your hands and a distant object) - this will help you to get your dog to work ahead of you.

You could practice your crosses, but i'll let someone else explain how.

You can get out a witches hat or something and teach the dog to do around it, thereby teaching an 'out' - again to help your dog work away from you.

Teach your dog to walk backwards and step sideways to move their back legs only (sorta like a circle, with front legs stationary) - this helps them with rear end awareness.

I am sure there is plenty more, but that is all I can think of!

[dogdude]

Hi Sne

My advice is to look at making your obedience training more interesting to your dog, rather than looking for more to stimulate him at this stage. You still need a reliable level of control while in aglilty, and having full control of him in an emergency situation is more important than running an agility course IMO.

The problem with dog school is that the classes do get "boring" for the dog. The classes run way too long, and if you have a second rate instructor then you will be doing heeling drills for half the class. A good instructor will be talking and explaining things for at least half of the class, while your dog is at ease. This should be the case at all levels.

If you view the obedience in a negative light in any way, your dog will soon pick up on it and follow suite.

Try breaking your training down into short, sharp exercises that have a planned purpose. Work toward making every exercise a thing that your dog likes even better than the first. I have not yet been to a dog school that makes that their aim, but many top trainers do.

[poodlefan]

Dogdude:

Some of them obtained the title of Obedience Champion before they were 18 months old.

How long ago are we talking about??? I have to say that I find that difficult to believe but if you say they had it.. I'll take your word for it. Are you sure that "obedience champion" really meant OC or merely that they had an obedience title?

I guess my point is that if the pup seems happy to do the work, and enjoys it, then surely it cant be doing any harm.

It probably isn't.

Look, what I see happening around me (and clearly so does Vickie) is experienced competitors getting pups and bringing all these expectations and placing all this pressure on the pups to be like their experienced dogs. What people sometimes forget is all the time and effort they took with their older dogs and they start taking shortcuts and placing more pressure on pups earlier and earlier. They forget that while THEY may know more about what's going on, their pups still need to start from zero and build up.

We had a young Aussie Shepherd do brilliant work in CD at our last state titles. Beautiful heel work, fast straight sits, drops etc. The handler said that she was taking the dog out of the ring for 12 months to work on CDX and to give him time to mature. This was a professional dog trainer who had the patience and a long term training strategy in place. She knew her dog's limits. A lot of competitors don't.