JulesP Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 Teaching Brock stand for exam at the moment and he is having some issues with it. He is not coping with being examined. He is a very soft dog but also super friendly. He is just flopping on the ground during the exam. He hasn't been happy standing in general. Very unstable in the stands. As he is so soft any sort of correction makes it worse, even saying Arrrr to him. Any cunning ideas?? I was thinking about doing a sit for exam until he was confident about being approached and touched. And doing a stand free without being touched until he was confident with the two different parts of it. And then putting them together. On the plus side Brock did his first off lead heeling and was a little star! I hadn't even trained it at home so was very impressed when he stuck to me like glue whilst weaving between dogs!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 (edited) Hi JulesP Try raising his front feet slightly off the ground with a low broad jump or something, (stand him on it). Can sometimes discourage movement. I was a guest handler at another club yesterday (for his trial preperation) and was annoyed by the instructor being unusually firm with my dog during the stand for exam. He used alot of downward pressure while running his hands down my dogs back, and lingered way too long. Luckily, the dog did not have an issue with it, but experiences like that are not positive ones for the dog either. During a trial, the judge will gently and quickly "brush" their shoulders, and it's all over in a flash. Be very carefull of the experiences that you allow your dog to have. At this stage, I would keep them very brief, even with only gestured contact from a distance until the dog gains some confidence. Build it from there. Another thing I wont ever do again after yesterday is doing a side by side recall with another dog in class. I was told to call my dog, when he got half way to me at a good speed, the other handler shouted "NOOOO" at his dog for breaking, which stunned my dog into slowing down. I then had issues with following attempts. If you intend to trial, be very carefull of what you are asked to do in class. Edited February 25, 2007 by dogdude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 Hi Jules, How about working on the stand and getting someone to walk past (without patting him). Then gradually reduce the space until the person is running their hand down his back. If he goes to break - re-iterate "stand" and place him back in position if you need to. I can show you this on Sunday if you like - when is your class? I find growling at them, for me anyway, has made the situation worse - I really, honestly feel that the growling at Leo has been part of the problem with our sit-stays. Now, if he breaks, I try and get someone to remove him out of the ring and tether him to his post (lost his chance for reward) whilst I don't return to him. Works a treat :rolleyes:. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 Okay, my dog was like this too, just the same. A bit fear submissive with people. Tips I've been told were practice at home and club if the dog likes being brushed, with you using a brush and doing the stand for exam all by yourself. The thing that worked for me was heaps of stand for exams formally but me taking the handler's and judge's roles both. I use the words 'stand for exam' so she knows what's coming and she's a bugger on everything else but just zones out and ignores the judge now. never have a foot move. But to start with, I did it all by myself until she knew exactly what was coming. Then she was okay with strangers doing it cos she knew exactly what they were going to do. And I NEVER let anyone touch her head, or correct her for not standing well. I believe in cxns where necessary but not in this quite fearful exercise for the dog. Hope this helps. Remember... I am thinking of changing my name to CHIR (crap handler in the ring!!!) after Sat night LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 He hasn't been happy standing in general. Very unstable in the stands. Personally I would not even attempt a stand for exam if my dog's stand was still not well established. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted February 26, 2007 Author Share Posted February 26, 2007 That is what I was thinking Haven. Pup was only expected to do a 3 sec stand in the last class and in this one it is a loooongggg stand for exam. Yep agree Dogdude, if you want to trial you really need to watch what you do in class. I am a total pain in the arse about it! Actually one lady in class is not helping Brock's nerves as for some reason she keeps stepping on him! I try and avoid standing next to her but she moved next to me! May be rather firm with her next week if she does it again. Leopuppy he is flopping on the ground if you just walk past him too! Stand has been the dodgiest thing with my last 2 dogs, both borders. I wonder if it is a border thing? A dislike of standing? Or I am doing somethng wrong each time I was just practising saying the word 'stand' (I'm at home, don't worry!) and it is quite a hard word to say in a happy type voice! I wonder if I need to work on the stand command not sounding grumpy?? Pup really looks unhappy about standing. Ears and tail down and worried look in eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 (edited) Stand has been the dodgiest thing with my last 2 dogs, both borders. I wonder if it is a border thing? A dislike of standing? Or I am doing somethng wrong each time I think it is - I know that a lot of working dogs have difficulty holding a 'stand' or 'sit' because nature tells them to 'drop' once their work is done. IMO the working breeds are the main ones that go down on a sit stay in the obed ring (mine included). Keep the rewards high for just holding a stand.... then gradually adding in your distance.... if he is constantly getting rewarded for standing still... why on earth would you want to move . Same as the 'drop' - remember when you keep putting food down and the dog gives you a look when released "why on earth do I want to get up - more food might fall down!" My offer still stands - come and show me on Sunday and I can offer some pointers after seeing it . I was just practising saying the word 'stand' (I'm at home, don't worry!) and it is quite a hard word to say in a happy type voice! I wonder if I need to work on the stand command not sounding grumpy??Pup really looks unhappy about standing. Ears and tail down and worried look in eyes. Say 'stand' in a 'command' voice.... doesn't need to be happy as such, just not growly. He is probably looking unhappy coz he is uncertain about what he is meant to do ... as he understands the concept better, he will gain more confidence.... even if they 'know' the behaviour - Leo has lost his 'worried' look for the sit-stay, now that he knows what is expected Edited February 26, 2007 by leopuppy04 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidoney Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Tip I got at a seminar once was to use resistance to stabilise the stand. Start at a sit. Push gently against dog's shoulder (or somewhere that the dog is going to brace against). As soon as you feel the slightest hardening of the muscle as the dog braces, click or otherwise mark the resistance, and reward. Progress until dog resists happily resists quite hard pushes. This gives the dog "something" to do rather than just hanging about standing still. Progress to doing the same thing at a stand. Do it with just you at first. When you feel the dog is stable with you, bring in someone else to gently push the dog, progressing to when the dog resists being moved by someone else. You may need to go all the way back to the beginning each time you bring in a new person. Go as far back as you need to, to achieve success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Tip I got at a seminar once was to use resistance to stabilise the stand. Start at a sit. Push gently against dog's shoulder (or somewhere that the dog is going to brace against). As soon as you feel the slightest hardening of the muscle as the dog braces, click or otherwise mark the resistance, and reward. Progress until dog resists happily resists quite hard pushes. This gives the dog "something" to do rather than just hanging about standing still.Progress to doing the same thing at a stand. Do it with just you at first. When you feel the dog is stable with you, bring in someone else to gently push the dog, progressing to when the dog resists being moved by someone else. You may need to go all the way back to the beginning each time you bring in a new person. Go as far back as you need to, to achieve success. Yep - this works really well. I've done it with Leo for sit, stand and drop. It really helped him understand what each position meant - and that it meant stay there no matter what circumstance. His positions were pretty stable before I did this though - the whole 'setting your dog up for success' theory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatevah Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 With stand for exam I read Morgan Spector's book and I think he said have the dog in a stand stay at your side for at least 30 seconds, before even moving away. I would want a really stable stand, so the dog can stand whilst I walk around in a circle. With Moses I struggled at the start, and would reward him as someone walked past, then I slowly worked up to the first just barely touching him. I think at one stage I also just c/t Moses if someone walked near him and then backed away without him moving. Another technique once you have a good stand is to stand in front of the dog and feed the dog whilst he is being examined. Josh my flatcoat was hilarious during stand for exam he would wag his tail so hard that his hips were moving but his feet would stay on the ground. During the training stage he would do a happy dance, all feet moving independantly but he would not go to move anywhere but on the spot. In a CCD trial, the judge was putting his hands on Moses face so that Moses eyes were pulled slightly back, he looked chinese. Some judges were going over the dogs twice. So if you are going to trial work up to a really thorough examination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Might have helped if I'd read your post better Jules. if he isn't 100% on the stand in general I wouldn't try a stand for exam. It's better just to get the stand solid first, so he's not dealing with silly humans touching him too LOL. CTD, did the judge touch your dog's face and head in CCD stand for exam? I didn't think that was allowed. It's not a show ring! Gee, I've never even seen them do that in Open, where they are more thorough! Good on Moses for standing still and taking it! Does anyone know if that's not acceptable for a judge to go over the face and head? It seems a bit harsh at least at CCD level... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatevah Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Yep the judge, who surname starts with "H" touched his face, as I saw Moses eyes going chinese. I also saw a judge pushing down on dogs backs also in CCD. This was right at the start when the new rules came in. Also consider if a judge has been judging a higher class then goes to CCD, they could be likely to forget that they are judging a CCD dog and do the same type of exam. In Novice the exam was less thorough. Will have view the videos again of Moses doing CCD and Novice and have a look. You can see the videos on my web page, just scroll to the obedience section. You always want your to be better than standard. So if says stand for exam say from 2 metres away then train 4 metres, practice a more thorough exam. If it is a one minute sit stay practice at least 1 min 30 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheres my rock Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 just to point out DD many judges are overly rough on the dogs ive had them bounce a small dog on the back stand for that little longer creeep up slowly and be to gentle so its best to be prepard for anything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsD Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 In my experience it's quite normal for judges to give the dog a fairly thorough exam , starting at the head (ie a hand on top of the head near the ears, sometimes one under its jaw at the same time), both hands on either side of the neck, down the shoulders & chest & back up, down the body, down the back legs to the thighs, up to the hips & give a quick press on the hips & then running a hand right down the dogs back from shoulders to tail before walking away. I train my dogs accordingly & would expect my dog to be stable enough to take that sort of examination before I put it in the trial ring. Certainly some judges in CCD (& possibly novice) may not be as thorough, but many are & I'd rather my dog be more stable than was expected at a higher standard, even in a lower level. Arya, the rules state that the judge will touch the dogs head or body but may not inspect the mouth or it's legs or tail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Fully agree that you should proof your dog against a thorough exam. I would protest if a judge was rough though. I have not come accross one that did what I class as a rough examination. In the lower classes it is usually done quite quickly in my experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 One of the things I used to do (and its funny cuz I mainly had to do it with BC's too now that you point it out) was to initially avoid standing over them for the exam. I mainly found that if the dog was gonna crash to the ground, it would happen the instant that I started to bend over. I'd walk up and squat beside them at about an arms length, with my shoulder facing them and without looking at them, reach out and touch them lightly on the shoulder...just briefly at first, then get up and move move away. Over progressive attempts I would being moving closer, standing more and touching more depending on the reaction from the dog. I'd also instruct the handler to not wait for me to call return to dog, but they were initially to return and praise/reward the dog the instant that I started moving away...once again increasing the time over successive attempts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 CTD, I totally agree that dog needs to be better than standard. I do what you do with the stays and have eked them out the three minutes in the sit stays now, so like Open time. Best part about this, in the ring it feels like you're returning early. Credit to Moses that he stood for that stand for exam with the Chinese eyes LOL. My dog will now stand for her head to be touched if she has to but does not love her head being touched by strangers. It is a dominant gesture and she is a fear submissive dog with people. Why do we have to train our dogs to withstand dominant gestures from strangers??? It's beyond a test of character imho, but then, them's the rules so we do it Thanks for the rules Mrs D. I didn't know it said the head as I've never seen that done in Novice or CCD. As Dogdude said, most seem to be very quick in the exam so as not to unduly spook the dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted February 27, 2007 Author Share Posted February 27, 2007 Brock is actually funny about his back end being touched, rather than his head. I am slightly suspicious about his hips but the vet has said to give him some time. So I am giving him lots of bum scratches at the moment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glorybea Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 I found if there is mainly female at your club /friends that you get as many males as possible to exam.-- my worse exam was for my title pass it was raining and the judge had a hat on ,leant down to exam and the brim of the hat was filled with water which of course tipped onto my dog -- who stood and took it until the judge said return then she shook unfortunatly being a small dog when she shook so did her legs NO PASS NO TITLE well not that day glorybea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 I found out on the weekend that we now have an issue with stand for exam as well. Dog has always done it so well that I practically dropped it out of his training. He now has a habit of sitting at heel when I return! Hope it will disappear If I get onto it regulary. Might go to KCC park tonight for a run through the ring. Novice level is full so I will have to go into the CCD ring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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