Tonymc Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 Sidoney,I think your post on page one sums it up so well!!!!! Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOE Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 Dogs do love well mine love me anyway and I love them the same with no restrictions if they are bad I still love them. But I think Oliver hates me when I clean his ears And I will admit I probably treat my dogs better than I did my kids years ago. And for the record Shoemonster I dont think you are a dickhead, never mind TB she's wierd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 (edited) The reason I asked was because of a lot of reading about human emotions being put on animals, and of people treating their pets as humans Trainers will often remind you not to treat your dog as human simply because quite often people get unfairly upset with their dogs, and blame them, if the dogs don't react like people. For example, people assume a cowering dog feels guilty for ripping up the carpet, when he is merely scared of his owner's aggressive body language. Or they get upset if a dog does something they think he should know is "wrong", although dogs don't understand that concept. It's important for us to bear in mind that dogs aren't just little furry people, since otherwise we have unfair expectations of their behaviour. Dogs certainly don't have the same cognitive ability as people. They don't reason as efficiently as we do, and they don't (IMO) have a moral conscience. They don't know 'wrong' from 'right', or even understand those concepts. In these ways, they are mentally different from humans. But IMO they do feel basic emotions, such as fear, anger, and affection. Edited February 24, 2007 by Amhailte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 (edited) Do dogs "love" us?Interested in opinions, thanks I guess the true answer is - we don't know because we're not dogs, we can only assume until proven otherwise...however we can take into consideration some of the findings in the last 50-100 years. The whole 'humanising a dog' thing really annoys me, it's almost like the 'dominance' thing....it gets overused and taken out of context far too often. I certainly do not feel that dogs should be treated as humans because clearly they're not as they have their own langage, they're own social workings and way of life, but there is no way a person can say with scentific evidence that a dog does not have emotions....they very well may not be the same as ours or are experienced to the same that ours are, however scientific clinical trials have shown that dogs are capable of complex thinking....complex thinking can very well include emotion/s. I think 'Guilt' is one the emotions a lot of owners believe their dogs feel, however we can now tell you why your dogs cowers or gives you a look that is percieved as guilt. However, emotions are many, does a dog feel Pain? Grief? Pleasure? Anger? Some would say of-course.....others would say you're humansing......those are the ones that bug me because science already tells us that animals feel pain, they feel anger, they feel pleasure, and in scientific clinical trials into behaviour, scientists were convinced that grief was also felt....the level of such an emotion is however unknown....we can't know...we're a different species. HOWEVER.....how could we possibly admit that a dog is capable of feeling emotions as deep as humans do because then we are faced with so many ethical and moral issues..... We've learned a great deal in the last 100 years, you would be horrified to learn (if you weren't already aware) that some of the most respected behaviourists back in the black and white days believed that dogs felt no pain, they we're simply giving off mechincal type reactions similar to that of a clock, for example if a clock fell from a wall and hit to floor you'd hear the inner workings of the clock clanger about, this is what the behaviourists way back when believed happened to a dog when you kicked etc......so therefore giving a dog a good old kick wasn't an issue because they felt no pain.....was this a way of justifying how poorly some dogs were treated back then? Edited February 24, 2007 by sas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 The reason I asked was because of a lot of reading about human emotions being put on animals, and of people treating their pets as humans They don't know 'wrong' from 'right', or even understand those concepts. Can you back this up a bit? I maybe misreading what you've read and have gotten a bit confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teebs Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 Yes I have post before I read disease, which results in me posting crap that doesn't make senseI will leave this alone now, as I'm sure I've made myself look like a big enough dickhead Lets see if i can put my foot in it does your dog do things for you because they love you, or because they get something out of it? i believe we were talking about training with food, and someone said they dont use treads, that their dog does it because it wants to be with them, and loves them (did i get that wrong? it was early this morning i read it!) so does your dog sit when asked, because it loves you, or because it knows it is going to get something - be that a treat, praise, a pat or whatever it is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kayangel Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 this topic is still popular, but i am going to leave this one alone i have voiced my beliefs and views and i am leaving it at that!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 Im not sure if the love but they definitelly like or dislike. My dogs adore some of my friends. They never got anything from those people, as to do somethign you will get somethng in return. Yes they get pets, but they get pets from pretty much everyone that comes to my house. Yet they "love" some of my friends. Like V's love - who is to determine the borderline between one and the other. All I know is that my dogs like me and that matters to me. Also slightlly OT - do dogs love other dogs? My Rex has few dobe female friends but I can say that he absolutly in love with one of them. To the point of obsession. and its not that he has played with her more than other, not mated her, not lived with her. Just loves her. I guess she is attractive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teebs Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 kaos can hate other dogs, so i say yes, they can love as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 (edited) The reason I asked was because of a lot of reading about human emotions being put on animals, and of people treating their pets as humans They don't know 'wrong' from 'right', or even understand those concepts. Can you back this up a bit? I maybe misreading what you've read and have gotten a bit confused. IMO dogs don't understand abstract concepts like something being morally wrong, or morally right. Unlike humans, they don't feel guilty for doing things that are morally wrong, or feel smug or righteous for doing things that are morally right. They do things because they find them rewarding or not rewarding (either physically or emotionally). Not because they think something is the morally right thing to do. Their brains just aren't capable of thinking that way. so does your dog sit when asked, because it loves you, or because it knows it is going to get something - be that a treat, praise, a pat or whatever it is? Your dog does what he does either because he is genetically programmed to do it (e.g eat, mate), or because he has learned that it will be rewarding (either emotionally rewarding, or physically rewarding). He sits because he has learned that sitting on command is somehow rewarding (results in praise, love, food, or escaping punishment), and he is genetically programmed to seek these rewards. If that seems overly cynical, remember humans are the same. We all are programmed to seek reward, whether this is emotional reward like companionship and affection, or physical reward like food or money. No matter how much you love your family, you wouln't obey them unconditionally without some form of reward or acknowledgement (even if the reward is a simple smile and hug, or social acceptance). Your dog is similar. Just my cynical 2 cents. Edited February 24, 2007 by Amhailte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvertravis Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 The reason I asked was because of a lot of reading about human emotions being put on animals, and of people treating their pets as humans They don't know 'wrong' from 'right', or even understand those concepts. Can you back this up a bit? I maybe misreading what you've read and have gotten a bit confused. IMO dogs don't understand abstract concepts like something being morally wrong, or morally right. Unlike humans, they don't feel guilty for doing things that are morally wrong, or feel smug or righteous for doing things that are morally right. :D They do things because they find them rewarding or not rewarding (either physically or emotionally). Not because they think something is the morally right thing to do. Their brains just aren't capable of thinking that way. so does your dog sit when asked, because it loves you, or because it knows it is going to get something - be that a treat, praise, a pat or whatever it is? Your dog does what he does either because he is genetically programmed to do it (e.g eat, mate), or because he has learned that it will be rewarding (either emotionally rewarding, or physically rewarding). He sits because he has learned that sitting on command is somehow rewarding (results in praise, love, food, or escaping punishment), and he is genetically programmed to seek these rewards. If that seems overly cynical, remember humans are the same. We all are programmed to seek reward, whether this is emotional reward like companionship and affection, or physical reward like food or money. No matter how much you love your family, you wouln't obey them unconditionally without some form of reward or acknowledgement (even if the reward is a simple smile and hug, or social acceptance). Your dog is similar. Just my cynical 2 cents. On a slightly different subject - has anyone ever thought about how do dog recognise their own breed - we just rescued a Border and we have one other boder living with us - all the other dogs are Kelpies (and one silver poodle) - now the rescue border is desperate to make friends with the other border and not at all interested in the kelpies. When we owned Irish Setters they were the same - always recognised their own breed. I find it very interesting. Sidoney - I like your ideas the way dogs love, and that most importantly they are dogs and we should not in my view degrade them with associating other ugly human emotions to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teebs Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 kaos hates her own kind - she can sit in the car, dogs walk by, no problem, but another staffy and she goes mad - growling and head butting the window ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybeece Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 I think that they definitely feel love, but a far more simple type than what people feel. I know a lot of behaviour can be described as pack drive or instinct, but I really don't think that's the whole story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbbb Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 Slightly OT, but there are psychologists out there who theorise that humans do not feel love - that everything a human does is for their own satisfaction. That everything humsans do is ego-centric. eg humans will be with a partner not because they love them but because of how the partner makes them feel. Humans give others people presents not to make the receiver feel good, but because of the feeling of satisfaction and glory that the present-giver gets etc However, I dont subscribe to that. But to answer that question you really have to define what love is. Is love respect and affinity for a person? Is it a feeling of impending loss? Does love involve intimacy? Once you define what love means to you, you'll be able to think about the question better. I personally dont believe that dogs love the same way humans do, but I think they love in their own way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teebs Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 i dont know about that Jbbb - what about someone who loves a person who doenst love them? they get nothing out of that that could be called rewarding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
country joe Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 My dogs love me. That's it. end of subject. I can prove it. Every morning after their walk they stare at me with love through the back door. I then feel guilty, no make that love and then go and make them toast because they love me. They love the toast and they love me for making the toast. The whole exercise is full of love. I think my dogs may be using mind control on me. In a loving way. Country Joe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Clover Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 I think yes they can love but not the same as people do. And they are never destructive with it. Very well put . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Her Majesty Dogmad Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 definitely and yes, they are higher beings with purer love Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NaturallyWild Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Anyone interested in this topic should read Patricia McConnells new book "For the love of a dog". I haven't read it, put she was at the Association of Pet Dog Trainers Conference when i was over in the states recently and gave two talks about this topic and read an snipet of her book at the closing of the conference - had everyone in tears. She is fantastic because she bask up emotions with scientific logic. Yes they love - and have a scarily large number of similarities to us - i guess thats why we love them so much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted February 26, 2007 Author Share Posted February 26, 2007 Yes I have post before I read disease, which results in me posting crap that doesn't make sense I will leave this alone now, as I'm sure I've made myself look like a big enough dickhead Lets see if i can put my foot in it does your dog do things for you because they love you, or because they get something out of it? i believe we were talking about training with food, and someone said they dont use treads, that their dog does it because it wants to be with them, and loves them (did i get that wrong? it was early this morning i read it!) so does your dog sit when asked, because it loves you, or because it knows it is going to get something - be that a treat, praise, a pat or whatever it is? Thanks TB, that's how the conversation came up before I went brain dead and lost it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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