ILFC Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 Is an alpha roll where you put the dog on it back and hold it there to "dominate" it? (I've just read the "Destraint " topic). If it is- it makes me very uncomfortable. When we first got out puppy now a dog- over a year ago, 2 vets, 2 puppy schools and one behaviouralist recommended it. I wouldn't do it as I don't like the idea of it. Also, looks like you could get bitten. This has probably already been asked but I'm relatively new- sorry of it has been already asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 Yes essentially you are correct, if you do a google search I'm sure it will come up with heaps of stuff. The whole-dog-journal.com published a very good article about it just recently called 'Biscuits, not rolls, why you should never use the alpha roll and what to do instead'. Beware though that if you google it you may get a lot of sites who support it as a training method. We now know there are much better ways of leadership without having to roll your dog into submission. Oooh here is a great article too: History and misconceptions of dominance theory I haven't posted it for a while and nearly forgot about it! Mel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 Having said that - it's a good idea to teach your dog to allow himself to be restrained on his side or back (or any other position), simply in case you need to hold him like that at some point, e.g at the vet. If you teach this properly and gently, and your dog is otherwise well adjusted, he shouldn't bite you for doing that! But that's a lot different to the "alpha roll", where you're holding down an unwilling dog in order to prove your "dominance" over him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 (edited) Thanks Am. I also was going to add that a gentle form of "Alpha Roll" - executed in a comfortable, non-threatening manner simply to accustom the dog to being physically manipulated is good. But then, because that would be done to simply accustom your dog as opposed to an attempt to force submission, for all intents and purposes it's not really an "Alpha Roll" as I think this label bears with it not only the 'action' but also 'intent'. Gosh ..... hope that makes sense . I should be getting ready to leave to attend some appointments, and here I am on DOL! Better go! ETA: Actually, sorry Am ..... I think I ended up saying exactly the same as what you posted. Except you said it better! ETA: IMO, this is where compulsion training (which can be done quite gently, calmly, non-threatening albeit firmly) in obedience (eg. sit; drop) has advantages. In the process of learning to associate obedience commands with actions, the dog is simultaneously learning acceptance of physical manipulation. Edited February 22, 2007 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 ETA: Actually, sorry Am ..... I think I ended up saying exactly the same as what you posted. Except you said it better! Well, it's still nice to know that my amateur opinion has your seal of approval, seeing as you're much more qualified than I am! It's got to be reassuring to the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Well, it's still nice to know that my amateur opinion has your seal of approval, seeing as you're much more qualified than I am! It's got to be reassuring to the OP. Dear Am !!!! DO NOT sell yourself so short!!! You know heaps both on a theory AND practical level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cassie Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Just a question regarding this, not sure if it's exactly the same thing or not... I've read many books/websites/etc that say when you are choosing a puppy from a litter, that you should roll the pup over on it's back (gently of course) and if it just lays there calmly, then it will be an easy-going (I suppose maybe submissive?) pet, but if it struggles and wiggles about all over the place and tries to get free or bite you, then it will be dominant later in life. Is there any truth in this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonymc Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 The Alpha roll is a movement that many do not understand or take out of context.To really understand it clearly we need to refer to the Experts.Those Experts are the Wild Dogs themselves.Many may have not had the benefit of watching live Wild Dog behaviour, but their behaviour will clear up confusion. The Alpha or Top Dog will of course at times put a lower ranked member of the Pack back in it's place.The Alpha will stop its disciplinary action as soon as the lower ranked Dog submits. The Alpha roll is used by the Alpha Dog but for a different reason than that described above.The Alpha or stronger Dog will throw the other Dog on its back,then go straight for the Throat. In full on Alpha rolls killing the other Dog is the intent,not just submission!!! This is the reason why Humans throwing a Dog on his back is dangerous, because the Dog naturally feels his very life is threatened!!!!Thats why many Dogs put in that position will come up fighting!!!To them they are fighting for their very life. Where Humans have really got things screwed up is,using the Alpha Roll which to a Dog is life threatening,when they only want the Dog to submit.Using the Alpha Roll in most cases is overkill!!! Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILFC Posted February 23, 2007 Author Share Posted February 23, 2007 thanks- still don't like it, i just taught grover to drop and roll instead. why would you need to dominate like that? i mean - what was the original purpose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridgie_cat Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 (edited) I think the theory behind it is that it puts the dog into the submissive position thus showing it that you are boss and it should listen to you. Dogs that think they are above you in the "pecking" order may take comands to get the treat - but they will chose which ones they listen to and they are more likely to become agressive towards you in trying to assert their own dominance (of course this would be in worse cases... most just assert in little ways)... I have problems with my spot over Lana as there are lots of other ppl in my house and at school that she would rather be with/listen to than me = she doesnt think she has to listen to me because I am not top dog in her mind. I do not alpha roll or anything... most I have done is moved her off the bed and am going through different training techniques to make stuff more interesting - instead of asserting dominance... In the old days (and some trainers today still use it very effectively - I know of at least 1, maybe 2) dogs were treated more severly (ie forceful alpha rolling...) - as this was seen to be what would happen in a true pack situation with other dogs... of course these trainers also have a very good understanding of how to properly praise the dog as the more severe reprimand - the more hyper the praise should be = dog thinks you are worth the effort to be around since you are the source of all their fun... even if they do get told off a bit. ... please note that when I say severe I am not refering to actual violence... I am refering to tone of voice, body language, incl alpha roll... etc... violence is bad mk... ;) This is just my understanding - more experienced pplz please correct me if I have said something wrong! Bridget eta sp... Edited February 23, 2007 by bridgie_cat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 The Alpha or Top Dog will of course at times put a lower ranked member of the Pack back in it's place.The Alpha will stop its disciplinary action as soon as the lower ranked Dog submits. Tony This is where people using the Alpha roll get it wrong. If you watch dogs or wolves interacting, you can see that it is actually the submissive dog that rolls of its own accord, the alpha dog does not force it to roll physically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILFC Posted February 25, 2007 Author Share Posted February 25, 2007 Well, I could be wrong but it seems too open to misinterpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akitaowner Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 (edited) well flame me if you like but i have used the alpha roll with my boy when he was younger -around 12 months and it was fine. I have never had any issues with him being aggressive or anything but when reaching maturity he would push his luck and his weight around. worked for me - ive never done it to my girl but she is only 7 months if she behaves the same way ( in dominance) i'll do the same with her. I'm not a fan of using treats for ALL training - then all you are doing is bribing the dog, not training it. They should obey commands for a simple praise reward also. Edited February 26, 2007 by Akitaowner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Akitaowner, if you are not already aware, the very fact that you need to perform an alpha roll on your dog indicates that you have leadership issues. Status is largely decided without aggression, it is only when it is in contention that dogs use physical force. What you are doing is treating the symptoms, not the actual problem and while you may have 'won the battle' you haven't 'won the war.' You were lucky not to get your face ripped off though, that much is true Also using food in training doesn't = bribery, timing is everything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akitaowner Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 I dont want to argue - but my dog would never 'rip my face off' i did it maybe twice as i wanted to make sure i could manipulate the dog without objection, and i did. My 'status' is fine i have numerous programs in place to ensure it remains that way, believe me the war was never started. Anyone who has met Mav would testify he does not have 'typical' dominant Akita temperament, if you have ever met an akita. i didnt say all food training = bribery but i believe it is often used as an easy, quick fix for many people in basic training. Showelling treats down a dogs throat for a hr a week at 'training' does little in the long run except ensure that you have to have treat in your hand to get a response! JMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 I dont want to argue - but my dog would never 'rip my face off' i did it maybe twice as i wanted to make sure i could manipulate the dog without objection, and i did. Ok from this response it doesn't sound like you are talking about the alpha roll in the sense that it is generally used. I think someone explained earlier in the thread about the difference between the alpha roll i.e. using physical force to dominate your dog as the result of a direct challenge and simply teaching a young dog to accept being rolled over and handled gently. It sounds like you are talking about the latter, which is fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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