Bizzare Death (long Post)

[noisymina]

Any spiders in the bedroom?

Also, botulism works very fast, too and is prevalent in drought conditions.

[dogcop]

Allerzeit do you have any old drums around that don't have labels on them ?? Toxic fumes from an old can of ROUND UP will kll a dog in the same way. But don't expect a Vet to be able to get the correct results back as big companies have lots to loose. They pay big bucks to protect their butts. Farmer near casterton was loosing puppies for no apparent reason other than they had HORRIFIC deaths. FARMER started getting rash on face which was what started some sqealling in the CSIRO when a human was involved. But still no warnings issued big cover up at all levels.

Chris

[Staff'n'Toller]

How weird, so sorry you lost her, would have been very shocking for you both.

Sounds like 1080 but that is only from my limited experience of nursing a dog poisoned with 1080.

From what you described in your first post I would think you got a false negative for one of those toxins, but what and how may be a mystery forever.

Mel.

Edited February 20, 2007 by Staff'n'Toller

[Rebanne]

Yes, the vet was pretty certain it would come back positive for 1080, he was confident that it sounded spot on.... except he was bamboozled with the timeframe. She had been inside for at least 1 1/2 hours before the event, with no sign of distress.

I'm sorry for your loss

About 5 years ago one of my dogs was poisoned, we think. My vet was fairly certain is was 1080, never had any proof and luckily my dog recovered well though it was touch and go. The time frame was the same as your girl, about 1 1/2 hours from the only time he could have eaten anything to the onset of symptons. He was staggering around like a drunk, unable to stand, head banging later on, signs of bleeding in the brain. It was very puzzling and to this day I wonder what hit him.

[Rappie]

I just checked a couple of references and the delay for 1080 can be up to several hours. Since it acts on a particular part of the energy cycle, it can be delayed if the animal is quiet and equally accelerated if they are actively using energy. Certainly would fit with the neurological signs - it only takes a small amount on 1080 to do damage and it may well have disappeared from the stomach contents by the time it started to affect here.

[asal]

We haven't seen any tiger snakes, but that certainly doesn't mean it's not possible.

I guess snake seems strange in the way that she was in the bedroom and we couldn't find a snake, again though it's not an impossible scenario given how sneaky the bastards are.

Thanks guys, all suggestions are helping the brain matter to tick over.

wouldnt rule out snake in the bedroom. one got my dog that way,

heard her growling and fighting something then cried an dissappeared by the time i opened the door to see what was going on.. she was dead by the time I

found her in the dresser draw she had climbed up inside the back of it.

she was a chihuahua if your wondering how on earth a dog could do that.

[witheverythingiam]

OMG what an awful thing to happen Are they sure it was caused by some sort of toxin? It couldn't have been heat stroke could it, the symptoms are similar and it does cause intravascular clotting and haemorrhaging. If she was tearing around for 10 minutes in high temperatures that would be enough to cause it.

I was actually thinking the EXACT SAME THING. This type of thing happens to dog who are left in cars as the body can get very hot in just 5 minutes of extreme temperatures (not saying your dogs was in the car, just giving examples). If there's no external cool air to circulate, and get to the animals, the organs will start shutting down, and once shut down, usually VERY VERY hard to get working again - almost impossible. Barking could be sign of extreme pain. Haemorraging also fits. If very hot day, and dog running around (after brain starting to shut down - losing function) then seisures & massive heart attack. Definately wouldn't rule this theory out.

-WithEverythingIAm

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

I've heard conflicting things about spider bites - one that they are harmless to dogs but then I heard about another dog that died from one??? really don't know what to think, could that be a possibility?

[Jed]

Depends on what type of spider, Dogmad.

[calliech]

Allerziet,

Did the vet find only widespread haemorrhaging or did he also find microthrombi which are small clots in the organs and blood vessels? It's a big clue. Many toxins/envenomations and autoimmune/immune mediated diseases cause clotting throughout organs and blood vessels producing what is termed microangiopathic haemolysis (clots in the blood vessels leading to destruction of red blood cells) or dissemeninated intravascular coagulation (DIC) which is another term for the same but more describes the clotting and sequelae. The animal gets massive clots in all vessels and organs which leads to organ failure and neurological symptoms such as seizures. Once the clots form, the cells that are responsible for clotting (platelets) are completely consumed and inappropriate bleeding occurs, hence haemhorrage into the tissues. Other toxins inhibit the clotting cascade so instead of appropriate coagulation, no coaugulation occurs at all and the animal bleeds into all orifices, tissues, joints and organs including the brain which again produces seizures. Warfarin (rodenticides) is such a toxin. Various envenomations behave in unique ways. Some cause DIC and some cause haemorrhage. Some cause tissue necrosis. Urine and stomach contents are required for strycchnine analysis and urine for snake bite. Sometimes you will not find anything in the tox panel due to the degree of autolysis of the deceased animal.

It's a terrible feeling not knowing, but you may never find out. I am very sorry for your loss.

[Flaves]

Allerzeit, I am very sorry for your loss.

I hope you find the cause.

[cloud]

I'm sorry for your loss

I too, have seen a dog die of 1080 and the symptoms sound the same.

I was on a friends farm and we were walking our dogs through one of the paddocks when his little schnauzer ran ahead to a fox body lying in the paddock. The fox had vomit in his mouth and Taffy ate the vomit before we could get to him. I took my dog and bolted back to the house to ring the vet but it was too late. A short time later ( I can't remember how long) Taffy was acting the same as your dog and died soon later. I was in an absolute panic not knowing if mine had eaten some too, but he was fine. Turns out a neighbour had been laying 1080 by burying it in meat and a fox had dug it up, eaten it, then ran onto John's farm, and vomited just before Taffy found it.