Bizzare Death (long Post)

[Allerzeit]

We find ourselves faced with a situation where both we, and our vet are totally bamboozled so I thought, where better to ask for thoughts than on DOL?

The background story is that we lost Abby a month ago in strange circumstances, we've been waiting for toxicology results to come back from her post mortem, expecting them to confirm suspicions on why she died - we were advised today that the results came back negative, leaving us all at a total loss.

Abby was a 2 year old Border Collie x Kelpie (not that we could see any Kelpie anywhere, she looked like a Border Collie).

Abby was a working dog and household companion. She was not allowed to roam the property at any time. The only time she was off leash on our property was when she was working the sheep, or playing frisbee with OH, or if she was in our fenced house yard. The rest of the time when she was out with OH, she was either in the front of the ute (no back of the ute for Queen Abby), or in her "throne" at the front of OH's bike. If OH was home, then Abby was normally inside the house.

On the 19th of January, everything was totally normal. Abby ate her dinner at 5pm, and was happy and normal. She had shown no recent signs of being off colour, or anything other than normal. OH and Abby went to bed around 9pm, I stayed up (probably on DOL...). At around 10.00pm I heard Abby barking in her guarding bark (you know how you can tell when your dog's bark is serious?).

I went to the bedroom and opened the door, to tell Abby to be quiet and not wake up OH. Abby shot through the door like the devil was after her.

She ran to the back of the house, into the area we are renovating. At the time, there was no floor in the area just bearers and stumps. Using this access, she got under the house.

She spend the next 10 minutes or so running around under the house like a mad thing. Totally unresponsive to us calling her, seemingly in an extreme panic state. It was a hot night and she was becoming increasingly distressed.

Eventually she ran into the open, renovation area, still in a panic. She started convulsing and we were able to grab her.

We got her into her crate, still convulsing, and I tried to get onto the vet. While I was making the call, OH says she stopped convulsing for about 30 seconds, then suddenly had a massive convulsion and died.

We took her body into the vet for a post mortem the next morning. The vet said that there was massive haemorraghing throughout the body - all organs were affected, in the eyes, from the vulva, everywhere. Although there were multiple bleeds and widespread haemorraghing in the brain, there were no obvious signs of an aneurysm. His first suggestion was snakebite, followed by 1080 poisoning, then warfarin and strychnine.

He thought, however, that warfarin and strychnine were "grasping at straws" - he felt it was too quick for warfarin, and the symptoms didn't really match strychnine. We also ruled out warfarin and strychnine as neither have been used on the property and I can't see how she could have had access to either poison.

Snake bite was a definite possibility as we have had many snake encounters this season. 1080 was also a very strong possibility as it is used regularly in our area for fox baiting, and even though we don't have it on our property, we know it can be transported from neighbouring areas by birds, etc. The symptoms seemed, to me, to closely match 1080, based on the research I've done.

Samples were sent to Gribbles to test for snake and then if that came back negative, for 1080.

Snake bite came back negative a couple of weeks ago. And we have just had a phone call from our vet telling us that 1080 was negative as well.

We are all at a loss. The vet does not have any idea what else to suggest it could possibly have been. I guess we are back to warfarin and strychnine as possibilites, but I was wondering if anyone else could suggest any toxins that might match the symptoms Abby displayed (panic, convulsions, seeming to be in a terror state), along with the massive haemorraghing.

Obviously, I'm not after definite answers, I know that's not possible, just looking for brain storming ideas of what else we might look at.

Any advice or ideas are really appreciated, I know that you guys, of all people, know how much this has hurt us.

[AussieDog]

Sorry for loss.... after reading your post i would have to query whether you need to focus on the room she was in? Was she in there for any period of time (i only ask cause if she was than surely the source would be in the room?)

[Miranda]

OMG what an awful thing to happen Are they sure it was caused by some sort of toxin? It couldn't have been heat stroke could it, the symptoms are similar and it does cause intravascular clotting and haemorrhaging. If she was tearing around for 10 minutes in high temperatures that would be enough to cause it.

[SwaY]

Maybe she got something in the room, and had to get out hence the barking to attract you.

perhaps the running around was trying to get rid of the problem? (like when you hurt yourself you tend to shake that part of the body)

Im sorry for your loss.

eta for spelling

Edited February 20, 2007 by SwaY

[SwaY]

OMG what an awful thing to happen Are they sure it was caused by some sort of toxin? It couldn't have been heat stroke could it, the symptoms are similar and it does cause intravascular clotting and haemorrhaging. If she was tearing around for 10 minutes in high temperatures that would be enough to cause it.

maybe she heard something outside or under the house.

And the running around in the heat is what killed her?

[Vickie]

I'm just so sorry. What an awful tragedy for you. I hope you find out to put your mind at rest a little. RIP Abby.

ETA, what snake did they test for? Just browns or others as well? The warning bark is odd & makes me think there was something in the room. The time period fits with the running around, moving it through her bloodstream. Mine certainly give a weird growl for big lizards, thank goodness they have never seen a snake.

Edited February 20, 2007 by Vickie

[Allerzeit]

Sorry for loss.... after reading your post i would have to query whether you need to focus on the room she was in? Was she in there for any period of time (i only ask cause if she was than surely the source would be in the room?)

Maybe she got something in the room, and had to get out hence the barking to attract you.

perhaps the running around was trying to get rid of the problem? (like when you hurt yourself you tend to shake that part of the body)

That's what I thought first too - I was in the room searching it straight after she died. She was in our bedroom, and we couldn't find anything.

OMG what an awful thing to happen Are they sure it was caused by some sort of toxin? It couldn't have been heat stroke could it, the symptoms are similar and it does cause intravascular clotting and haemorrhaging. If she was tearing around for 10 minutes in high temperatures that would be enough to cause it.

I questioned that too, Miranda - I think I've asked the vet three times now if the running around in the heat could have caused the haemorraghing, and he seems to think it was too extensive for that - I haven't dismissed it at all.

ETA, what snake did they test for? Just browns or others as well?

Brown and black were tested for - we have both around the property, mainly black near the house and browns out in the paddocks. Funnily enough we had seen a black snake in the backyard earlier that day, although Abby was inside when we saw it.

[persephone]

I would have said snake.....To me ,it seems to fit..snake is spotted,bites,and she panics..etc.

what a terrible waste. Sorry.

[Vickie]

ETA, what snake did they test for? Just browns or others as well?

Brown and black were tested for - we have both around the property, mainly black near the house and browns out in the paddocks. Funnily enough we had seen a black snake in the backyard earlier that day, although Abby was inside when we saw it.

I have heard of a number of snakes out of their normal habitat lately. Any possibility of a tiger snake? I think they have a similar time frame to browns for venom to hit.

[Allerzeit]

We haven't seen any tiger snakes, but that certainly doesn't mean it's not possible.

I guess snake seems strange in the way that she was in the bedroom and we couldn't find a snake, again though it's not an impossible scenario given how sneaky the bastards are.

Thanks guys, all suggestions are helping the brain matter to tick over.

[Staffyluv]

I would have said snake as well - sounds just like my sister's dog when he was bitten by a snake. They thought it was a brown snake... The rotten things get away so quick too...

So sorry for your loss...

Jodie

[caffiend42]

Scorpion? Spider?

What an awful thing to have happened to her, and to your family. I hope you can get an answer - it won't turn back the clock unfortunately, but it may give closure.

[Rappie]

I questioned that too, Miranda - I think I've asked the vet three times now if the running around in the heat could have caused the haemorraghing, and he seems to think it was too extensive for that - I haven't dismissed it at all.

I would still consider it to be a possibility too - it's not the typical presentation but DIC (disseminated intravascular coagulation) can be caused by hyperthermia (and snake bite, and drug reactions etc). The distress and seizure activity would also fit with something causing increased consumption of platelets - it can present in a number of ways, but the last case I saw started with erratic barking, followed by facial twitching and a neurological "lameness". That particular case was immune mediated, and I would expect DIC to be a lot quicker. Thats not even touching on the possibility that the seizure activity - was just that, a seizure - there may well be a combination of common factors (although that doesn't directly explain the massive haemorrhaging).

I know you had a negative snake bite test, but I also wouldn't rule that out 100%. The time frame would fit with a massive lethal dose of venom, brown and black snakes can cause coagulopathies quite rapidly. Do you know what type of sample was sent for the testing - urine? It's plausible that it could have been a snake bite and that there was not sufficient time for venom to be filtered through the kidneys and enter urine, given that the time frame that you have described is so short. Nothing is certain - I've seen a case where a dog was bitten by a tiger snake 5 days prior to presenting to me, and that isn't something that is supposed to happen, but it did.

When faced with a situation like this, I'd probably be tempted to look for horses, not zebras. I guess that's a long way of saying that I don't really know either, and it may not be something you'll ever work out for sure.

You have my sympathy - it's hard enough to lose a loved one (human, or animal) at any time, let alone suddenly, and without a known cause.

Edited February 20, 2007 by Rappie

[Staffy-Lover]

The signs you have described can also be those of an epileptic who went into status.

An epileptic dog can have a fit (that you didn't see) then can have a state of panic and confusing and/or energy..... then another seizure which can be fatal ESPECIALLY if overheated.

A long shot BUT an epileptic fit would not show up in blood tests etc...?

[mysticpaw]

Firstly sorry for your loss

Just wondering,the room she was in if she would be able to hear something under the house in the part you are renovating.

If there was a snake or something else and she new it was there that could explain why she bolted from the bedroom.

She then got under the house and possibly got bitten.Sometimes when you renovate it disturbs things,especially mice this could have attracted a snake,but not of the type you have come across befoe.

Just throwing out ideas,seems she was on some sort of mission from the bedroom.

Such a sad story,made harder because you don't know what happened.

[Purpley]

I would go with snake bite aswel - mainly tiger snake. All the symptoms and time frame fit.

I am sorry for you loss and hope you find a way of moving on without the dread always hanging over your head.

[jesomil]

I have nothing to add but I am so sorry that you lost your little sheepdog

Edited February 20, 2007 by jesomil

[Jed]

Sorry to hear about Abby, nasty thing to happen, for you, and for her.

It does sound very much like 1080 - or snakebite.

A GP friend of mine once told me it is nearly impossible to detect 1080 post mortem. He suggested it was the poisoners' choice, and one of the reasons the baits are accounted for so carefully when baiting is organised.

And I know dogs who pick it up do tend to run - the symptoms sound like 1080. Maybe check that with your vet? So easy for a bird to drop a bait, and the dog needs to eat such a small amount.

Edited to add: Am not sure how long she was in the bedroom for - but if she picked up 1080, it would have been outside, and the time frame sounds a bit long for 1080 (depending on how long she was in the bedroom for), so snakebite seems more likely.

Edited February 20, 2007 by Jed

[Allerzeit]

Thanks Jed (and everyone else, too )

Yes, the vet was pretty certain it would come back positive for 1080, he was confident that it sounded spot on.... except he was bamboozled with the timeframe. She had been inside for at least 1 1/2 hours before the event, with no sign of distress.

I'm still not ruling out snake, but it seems strange that a snake could have been in the bedroom and not been seen by anyone - there were three other dogs in the house at the same time, but still not impossible, I know.

I'm not certain with the samples taken, I think it was blood tested for snake? One of them had to be heart blood, I remember that, but I think that was for 1080? Actually, no - 1080 was stomach contents, so snake must have been heart blood - does that sound right to anyone? I just remember the vet mentioning having to take heart blood.

Abby didn't seem to leave the room with intent to chase something down, rather she left the room already in panic/terror - so whatever happened was already happening when she ran from the room.

At the risk of sounding horribly morbid, the body did seem to decompose quickly, the trip to the vet the next morning was unpleasant to say the least. Even the vet commented on how bad it was - would that be consistent with anything that anyone can think of? I'm just assuming it was because of the heat, but I've not had the experience before of losing a dog at home and having to hold the body for a period of time, so not sure what is normal.

[fido666]

So sorry for your loss Allerzeit . Border Collies can have a genetic disorder known as Ceroid Lipofuscinosis (aka CL or Storage Disease). I wasn't sure of the symptoms so went looking for info and found some at BC Club of NSW, click on the "CL Information" link. You mentioned yours was a cross but some of the symptoms sound awfully similar. I hope you do get some answers, must have been horrible to watch her going through all that.

From the above site - Symptoms include:-

Affected animals appear normal until aged approx 15 months. From that age any or all of the following signs may be noted:

ö Unreasonable apprehension or fear of familiar objects/surroundings ö sight disturbance, ö abnormal gait – is unsteady on feet and has difficulty in climbing or jumping, tends to prop or goose step, ödemented behaviour, ö mania, ö hyperactivity, ö rage, ö disorientation, ö fixations, ö loss of toilet training,

ö strange or abnormal behaviour.

The progress and effect of the symptoms will steadily continue to deteriorate and medication cannot improve the condition. Affected animals have all been euthanased by the age of 3½ years. CL symptoms can be confused with other brain disorders.

To date, there is no test available to identify carriers of the defective gene. Suspected cases can be confirmed by brain biopsy from the age of 7 months. A post mortem will also give an accurate diagnosis.

If you are concerned that your dog may have CL, please contact the CL Sub Committee or Dr Alan Wilton, University of NSW School of Biochemistry.

Regards,

Corine

ETA info on symptoms

Edited February 20, 2007 by fido666