shoemonster Posted February 19, 2007 Author Share Posted February 19, 2007 Ed went through a stage of nicking off on me so I used a long line for a while, but he is alot better with his general attention to me now, so not really a big problem I really need to be able to do both! On and offlead, but I think I spend so much time at the moment worrying about where the lead is that I muck up other things I should be concentrating on I have gone more and more positive with Ed's training as he doesn't react well to correction, and he withdraws I use a chain martingale but this is more for the noise factor of it, if he does pull, more in general walking than obed though At the park yesterday I had a food tub next to the camera, and went back to that, I normally have treats in my pocket as well but am startign to get him used to no treats along the way, and do small sessions, heel up and back, treat out of tub, heel up a bit further and back, treat, etc He is going well with it, but he would probably favour the tennis ball over the treat in a park situation so I might keep the food for home for the moment (much as I'd love to throw a tennis ball in the lounge room!) I hope I'm making sense, I'm thinking as I type! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted February 19, 2007 Author Share Posted February 19, 2007 Hmm I'm thinking I will ask my lead guy to make me some shorter leads for training He makes great leads and I'm always looking for an excuse to get more! (bit like shoes, can never have too many!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 Hi ness Do you train out of Melbourne? Noticed in your video clip you have grass, (green, real life grass). Found some this morning at a footy ground not too far away. What a luxury I always took for granted!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 (edited) Yep can never have to many leads As for the whole rewarding issue and fading them don't bother going to any form of variable reinforcement till you have the enthuasism you want. Its a great idea to mix it up - sometimes use a toy (tuggy is great), sometimes food but if you want precision its much better to reward in position. I train with food in my right pocket or right hand so I can have it ready to reward when I need. Although rewards always are given from the left hand and close to my leg because dogs gravitate towards the reinforcement and where you want them for heelwork is ideally as close to the left leg as possible. Its a struggle to find the right balance but what I am coming to the conclusion is don't be too cheap intially. Sure one the behaviour is starting to come together you can ask for more but initially keep the rewards coming. Like I said I spent the weekend heavily reinforcing a close position with lots of treats - yep sometimes I was even luring but I would lure then reward pretty quickly and have a few treats in my hand and keep going till I ran out and then maybe ask for another one and reward from somewhere else. It certainly paid off this morning when I took her to the park and asked for some work minus the treats in my hand. If you break it all down like I suggested in my first post and reward at each of the relevant intervals you will find you can eventually fade the food out but if you want trial type work it will never go eventually. At least from my observations from chatting to various triallers (all with UD dogs) is that during a training they will never not include a food reward somewhere. If the dog puts in extra effort don't be hesitant to break off and reward a brilliant position or a brilliant turn. Edited February 19, 2007 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 Hand free leash belt..? Mel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 (edited) Nope dogdude I am in Adelaide. We are lucky we still have grass areas. That wasn't one of my usual training grounds but was still green . The two places we train both have green grass still as well. One is a baseball ground and the other is a school oval. The school oval is watered off bore water and the baseball ground still seems to get watered on a regular basis so maybe watered off bore water as well. We are only on level 3 water restrictions. Edited February 19, 2007 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted February 19, 2007 Author Share Posted February 19, 2007 I know, I'm so jealous of the green grounds Ness is working on! You're in SA though aren't you? Ok, thanks for the advice with the treats, I am so confused at the moment, and really trying hard not to bribe, but reward instead, but wasn't sure if having treats in my pocket would be considered bribing or rewarding, I am so glad to hear you say you do it though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 Yep SnT a hands free leash belt would do the trick. You can make one yourself by just threading a normal leash onto a belt or what I do is wrap a shorter leash around my waist (if you have one that has a ring on the end) and then stick the handle of my leash through the leash around my waist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted February 19, 2007 Author Share Posted February 19, 2007 hehe Mel, yeah maybe I need one of those! I want one of everything on the black dog site!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted February 19, 2007 Author Share Posted February 19, 2007 Oh actually, I just ordered a double ended leash from the lady I ordered my flyball harnesses off, maybe that will be good for that kind of thing It's coming this week Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 (edited) Getting the reinforcement issue right is one of the hardest things to master. Yep I still lure occasionally as I was trying to get her nice and tight and I got some advice from somebody in the UK last week. Her advice was that as long as you could fade the reward from the left hand and still get the same enthusiasm that she would in training have the reward (toy or food in the left hand) during training. So she would work through fading to a pocket, then to a bag on a table and then put the food back into the left hand to maintain the nice attention. If you watch her dogs heel they will quite happily heel for 4.5 minutes in a trial ring so obviously its not such a big deal. I have come to the conclusion its more a handler developed reliance on the food. During my trip to WA at the end of last year I had the good fortune of being able to train with one of the top obedience triallers over there (completely into positives). During that time it was interesting as she noticed I wouldn't ask Ness for anything (in terms of trial type work) unless I had loaded up with food first. She got me doing stuff without having loaded up my pockets first and I tell you it felt very strange to start with. By the time I got back after my 3 weeks it seemed more normal but still was a struggle. Now I will on the odd occasion make sure she is fired up and then set her up and do a small amount and reward her with something other than food. All the video I had filmed a few weeks ago you will notice there was no food in my hand but I did continue to reward at the completion of each exercise and that came out of my pocket. Occasionally she gets big jackpot rewards but then I can do less training. Edited February 19, 2007 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted February 19, 2007 Author Share Posted February 19, 2007 Ah that makes sense I will keep that in mind, it's so hard to train myself to do the right thing, or rather know what the right thing is!!! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 One thing I noticed was that you don't seem to change your pace just before your turns. I usually do a smaller/slower step just before I turn or stop. This alerts the dog that something is going to happen and also helps with the humans coordination! You can't do this too obviously or you will get pinged for an extra signal but it does make it look neater. Sorry if you are doing this and I can't see it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted February 19, 2007 Author Share Posted February 19, 2007 Nah I think you're right, I probably do do my turns too suddenly, even my own legs don't co ordinate sometimes! This is good, things to think about Thanks everyone, I love constructive critisism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 Thats why its a fantastic idea to get your footwork right without the dog before adding them into the picture . Although like I said before good idea to either tie the dog up or practice when the dog isn't around because otherwise you might suddenly find they have decided to join you . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 Shoey Did you end up borrowing Diane Baumans book from the VCA library? Has great footwork pics, step by step. Where has your mentor got too? I have not noticed any posts from her for ages, she ok? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted February 19, 2007 Author Share Posted February 19, 2007 Yeah she's ok, she's taking abit of time away from the computer and away from training, etc Have to say I'm missing her alot Haven't got that book, most of the times I get to Kcc its after work, or I'm at a show and my brain is fried, I will try to remember this sunday when I'm down there for a show (the library is open when shows are on isn't it?) I have borrowed a video off an instructor/judge at my club on footwork, it's really good too, he talks alot about practising without dog, and practising on tennis courts, etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 Wow, great topic and I've also been inspired by your comments in the topic I started Dogdude. Just have been out there every second I get when it isn't hot enough to fry eggs on the pavement, that is LOL!!! I can't get the videos working with my old computer Shoemonster GRRR but sister is going to help me. Wish I could right now though! My comments would be (and remember, I've got a dog who has been being recalcitrant in heeling in the ring so you may want to disregard anything I've got to say LOL, plus I haven't seen your video) is I always throw the ball first when I start up in training and say 'Are you ready... ready... ready?' My ball-nut tries to break into our training bag as soon as we get to the park to steal them out cos she can't wait to get started I also put shiny tin can lids on the ground to help the dog get used to distractions and markers on the ground, as well as balled-up tissues and flourescent yellow marker-coloured bits of paper. This week I've put Tess back on lead and worked her with it loose (she goes in position regardless) but if she glanced away to look at a birdie or whatever she got a mild pop on the lead to remind her we are working. This hasn't knocked her drive to heel well but that is just her. In the past she has been known to lay down a challenge by refusing to do an exercise. I wish I could get videos working cos I have one of her pulling the funniest body position on change of position, refusing to drop and going 'make me if you can'. It was so plain that I had to laugh and save it on the video as it is so Tess. I have done the big circles that you suggested Dogdude and she really liked these and all sorts of unpredictable changes of direction. Shoemonster, I look at Tess in the face a lot as I heel too cos I have her right focussed on my face and I want her to see my expressions. I don't know, in the ring I look up a little so it's not so obvious but I do like to maintain the face contact with her, which is hard. I guess it loses points, doesn't it. Quite a few handlers in my classes rattle that chain martingale for attention too without a correction involved. It works well for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 woops, sorry the post was so long. my fingers got carried away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 Shoey if you're after Beyond Basic Dog Training I have a copy you can lend for a bit. Mel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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