Inspired By Dogdude

[shoemonster]

I nearly didn't post this as it's pretty sloppy but I thought I could get some feedback too

I'm pretty new to this and it was a really hot day, even at 8.30am! (excuses excuses!!!)

As far as I can tell these are my main problems

I look at him too much, and my own walking is pretty wonky, therefore he proably wont heel closer as I must look unsteady to him

I get affected heaps by my nerves, even the added pressure of a video camera makes me nervous lol

And cos it was too hot we spent more time here than training!

ETA the sound is out by a few seconds on the training one - sorry

Edited February 18, 2007 by shoemonster

[dogdude]

Hi Shoey.

Comming along nicely. My little bit of advice would be to do some work on his "On/Off" switch.

(hard to be critical of one off routine) but this is what I noticed on first viewing.

Probably because you were thinking of the video. Do you normally rev him up with a ball after each exercise in your regular training? I remember from reading other posts of yours that he is a ball freak? If so, I would.

Good work! Hope to bump into you on the trial circuit soon!!

[ness]

I will be honest, my opinion is that neither you nor he look very enthusiastic about it and you look like your just going through the motions. It might be the heat or the fact your videoing it - I know I get that way with my girl and so does she both with taping something and when its hot. Quite simply at the moment I just don't ask for a lot when its hot (if anything) because I don't want to reward lazy work.

Ok so I am not perfect either - yep you certainly do look at him to much as do we all. Its a bugger of a bad habit to fix.

Did you go out with a plan for the session - what were your goals (also if you reward what are you going to use and how are you going to do it and when). It has been suggested to me that the way to get enthusiastic heelwork is to keep the sessions short, not to drill and approach the session with a specific goal in mind rather than just doing whatever heelwork you should feel like since if you approach it this way you tend to do really long sessions which don't achieve a hell of a lot because you don't have anything to measure against. Much better to have short targeted training sessions.

For instance you might plan a session to work just on positions (could be a sit session, drop or stand session). So you would only work on that and not do long bits of heelwork in between. It might be 1 step position, 2 steps position or even 3 but not long lengths.

Changes of paces can be worked out simply by setting the dog up doing a few paces of normal into 1 step of either fast or slow then reward. Then maybe go to 3 steps. Then 5. Then 10. Then mix it up. You might have to work on getting enthusiastic normal pace first in which case you go through the same process of slowly adding steps and rewarding but without the pace change.

Same goes for turns. You don't drill the long lengths of heelwork if you want to work on nice sharp turns. In fact I do a lot of turn work practising inside in the airconditioning on the spot. At least that was what I did this past weekend and when I took her to the park this morning she was just fantastic. Doodling heelwork is brilliant.

If you want to work on duration heelwork but all means work on that for a session but the best way to work on that is to work in large circles (both clockwise and anti-clockwise). Oh and don't do to much in a session. Start with a distance your dog is comfortable with and build on it but make sure you set your criteria first and don't deviate. For example its my preference for my girl to look at me all the time and for her head not to drop. Therefore the minute her head drops I break off what I am doing and don't reward but set her up again. You need to break it off so you don't build sloppy work into the behaviour chain.

You can add distractions slowly such as food containers (or toys) placed on the ground as figure 8 posts. But remember when you start adding distractions to reduce the amount of time you are working before rewarding the dog.

The other thing you can practice is making the heel position so exciting for the dog. So you basically ask the dog to set up and then rewarding. My cue words to get her switched into work are "Are you ready", "Do you wanna do something". These words are conditioned to mean that I want her full attention and once I get her in position and set up and working she gets my full attention.

Any way that is a starting point - sorry if its to much information or if you weren't after that much detail.

Edited February 19, 2007 by ness

[shoemonster]

No thats great!

It's like as soon as I get pressure my own attitude changes and I withdraw myself! Next video I will remind myslef that it is fun, and not be so boring looking ! lol

I have started using the ball more to get him revved up but yesterday I have no idea why I didn't even think of it! Maybe cos I knew in my head I was videoing, so I paniced!!!

What you saw on the video was pretty much all we did as it was just too hot, and I've started doodling alot at home too

Circles are a good idea, I will start doing that in training instead of heel and turns

My turns are shocking, I think it may be cos I have bad balance, so I will have to work on those without Eddie there

ok, my main goals now will be:

- Heeling keep short and use circles

- Use the ball more for revving up after sessions

- Not panic and get serious when videoing or having someone watch me! lol

Also one of my problems is I dont know what to do with the lead! It just seems to get in the way of everything

[ness]

Oh yes I forgot about the practice turns and heelwork minus the dog. I was doing that this morning or attempting to until somebody decided to join in LOL. Next time I intend to do that she will be tied up hehehehe. Sporting ovals with lines are great for making sure you do nice square turns.

One more thing I do which you could do with the ball is use whatever cue words you want to eventually use to switch him on and then just throw the ball. Then you can mix it up and the dog doesn't know if your getting ready to play or asking them to work. I only recently started using the cue words to get her ready to work - it was suggested by an instructor on my perth trip. She was just using are you ready and then getting her to work and after about the third time you could see Ness actually get excited. Funnily enough I didn't even think till after the lesson that before I threw her frisbee at the park or her toy at the beach I would ask her are your ready so those words actually already had an element of enthusiasm associated with then.

Half my battle has been getting Ness to switch on when I want her to rather than demanding heelwork when she wants and only going with half enthusiasm when I want it. It didn't work quite as well when I caught up with my instructor here a week or so ago mind you BUT then it was the middle of a warm afternoon so all things being considered I wasn't to upset.

I do have some more video up on youtube and you will see how badly my handling is.

I thought I had fixed it up but like I said bad habits such as looking at the dog aren't something you necessarily pick up on when your training alone. It wasn't till I saw it on the video that I realised it still wasn't fixed. Now I am consciously trying to not look at her which means I am insisting on a shoulder contact position at all times so I can at least feel if she is in the correct position.

When this video was filmed a few weeks ago we hadn't really been concentrating on heelwork practice other than short bits. Its not her best by any means but not half bad.

ETA. As for the lead is there any reason why you don't just get rid of it and train off-lead .

Edited February 19, 2007 by ness

[shoemonster]

Yeah I have just started saying to Eddie, "are you ready" at the start and he will give me focus when I use it, so I willl start using that for ball throwing as well, great idea

Once he is switched on he is fantastic, but when he is not (or rather when I have not been able to switch him on), he is so hard to work with

I love watching others doing work, great to see how everyone does it, Ness is looking great but I can see what you say about looking at her, though yours is way less obvious than me! lol

[shoemonster]

At home I never use the lead, but then I was thinking I should use it sometimes or I'll stuff it up in CCD, by not being used to it!

He doesn't need it by any means, so I guess in the long run it would be better just not to use it (unless in class and I have to)

Alot of the time I tuck the end of the lead into my pocket, so I don't have to hold it, and mess up my signals and stuff by fumbling with it

[ness]

Yes I would recommend maybe not using it at least when you training by yourself. You can then progress back to sticking it into a pocket and maybe when everything else is working right you can worry about adding the lead back. I find it easier to mix the heelwork up a bit because you can break off and play a game or something without worrying about a lead.

I have other clips up on youtube if you want to have a look from that same training session - some scent discrimination stuff, gloves, signals and sendaways and directed jumping.

This is the sendaway and directed jumping link - mostly because Ness really enjoys this exercise the most.

Edited February 19, 2007 by ness

[shoemonster]

Oh great! I have subscribed to your vids now too so I can find them later!

I think I will get rid of the lead now, it's just making me fumble so much , and he's not going to go anywhere

Ohhh freestyle too! Ed has just started freestyle, I actually think its made him like obed a little more, as we have lots of fun with it, and in breaks at obed I do little bits of freestyle which he loves!

[ness]

Yep we do freestyle - not very well mind you (I think we are doing demos at the Adelaide Pet Expo). I would hope she would be better now as I have worked out the whole switching on bit. The freestyle clip up there was taken on a boiling hot day - I had her totally soaked and she was bone dry by the end of her routine. She had also sliced her pad up at the property and had been limping quite badly.

[shoemonster]

She still looks like she's having fun!

I really like doing freestyle, but then I enjoy obed more now too, I think as I learn more I relax more cos I'm not so worried about not knowing what to do

One day it will feel natural I'm sure! lol

We have freestyle class tonight He's doing really well, just starting backing and circling the handler and stuff like that

I teach them lots of little tricks at home as well, like wave, beg, roll over, etc

[shoemonster]

Oh and dogdude, I need you to post up heaps more vids, I can't hardly find any staffords on youtube doing obedience!

Edited February 19, 2007 by shoemonster

[dogdude]

Hi Shoey

I would have to disagree with Ness in that I personally would do less off lead training at this stage, but at the same time, build his drive with bigger rewards to acheive the enthusiasm required.

Both you and Ness use different training methods to teach the individual exercises initially, and to acheive the mindset of ness's dog, I feel you would have to start from scratch. From an outsiders understanding, Ness seems to be leaning to more of a positive approach, and you a mixture? Not sure if I am correct in assumming that, but at Ed's level, I would still want my lead on for educational purposes. I still do most of my training onlead. At trialling level, I find it a waste of time by not testing my dog out with some distraction. Not sure if you noticed the noise in my clip, but there were workman in the park hammering in steel posts just out of camera shot.

I would be interested in Ness's thoughts on this too.

[shoemonster]

Something to think about

I try not to use corrections in training, and find that with the lead on I subconsiously rely on it to control where he is, whereas without it I can't and he normally works better

At home it all 100% positive trainign no matter what we're doing

I may be even giving him mixed signals with the lead do you think?

[dogdude]

Depends how you are using it I guess.

[shoemonster]

I think I need to tape my lead arm to my body so that I don't use it to control where he is positioned lol

How do you hold your lead when training with it? In your left hand only? Folded over so its not too long and getting tangled?

I always try to start that way but then I end up using the lead instead of just holding onto it

[dogdude]

I use a short lead, hooked around my thumb, tucked up just under my left breast. But I am also a bloke, and I would imagine you would have to position the lead a bit to the left, or a bit lower, lol! Maybe thats why my lead does'nt get in the way!

I found Ness's comments in her initial post good reading, agreed with all of it. Good post Ness!!

I will post some more Stafford clips up soon over the comming weeks to get some feedback so we will have plenty of time to fix ourselves up to be competitive. I just bought another dumbell yesterday as I lost it in November some time. His first session this morning with it was faultless, was really pleased. Dont know what went on at the footy ground last night, but there was old snags on the ground everywhere! Good distraction for a greedy little Stafford. As soon as he was released from the first exercise, he made like a vaccuum cleaner!

Edited February 19, 2007 by dogdude

[shoemonster]

Yeah might be!

Maybe there'll be a trend for a nipple ring as a lead holder for handlers (oops! ott maybe! )

Edited February 19, 2007 by shoemonster

[ness]

Either or Dogdude I just find the lead is one extra thing to have to manage and as shoey suggested it was causing her a few problems that it might be easier to add that into the picture once she had the rest sorted especially since her dog's preferred reward would seem to be a ball rather than food. Remembering that eventually you have to have the dog offlead in the higher levels anyway. Also if she finds it easier to get her signals more consistent without the lead then it may be better for the dog. Sure if you want a lead on, maybe tuck it in your pocket but like shoey said she trains without a lead on when she trains at home so I would see no reason why she should put one on at a park so long as Ed isn't going to run off.

I am not going to push onto anybody my training views, merely I was posting what I had been suggested to me which has certainly caused a huge turn around in 3 months for my girl.

Yes I train using totally positives but I will say I can see no difference at the learning stages. Even if I was into using corrections then the place for them is at the proofing stage and there no way I would introduce those until I thought the dog had some concept of what I wanted.

Sorry corrections don't build the enthusiasm also all I suggested was make sure she planned her training rather than just training for the sake of doing a session of heelwork. Sure if you are into using correction then you can factor that into your training plan. Its just a matter of knowing in your own mind what you are doing before you are going to train (that may include what you want to reinforce and how you are going to do it (in my case) or even what you aren't going to allow and therefore correct and how you want to correct it).

Even you yourself said that she needs to builds Eds drive with bigger rewards. I don't see shoey using leash corrections (at least the video doesn't show as such) if the dog isn't holding position so presumed she was using some sort of positive methods. I also have read in other posts that she uses the ball to reward Ed so presumed she is into rewarding when he does right even if she does use corrections as well.

As for adding in distractions sure I would in my training. Its crucial for your dog to generalise and therefore perform well in a ring that you take it to as many places as possible. In places of great distraction initially you may have to lower your expectations and work through like you have at other places in order to reach the same level. I don't agree with making a situation unduly difficult before the dog understands what you want.

We are only starting out on our UD training so naturally I try and limit the the distractions to as few as possible. A few weeks ago when she was struggling to get the concept of scent I had a few bars of soap out to force her to be more considered in her approach.

I made a mistake a few weeks ago trying to introduce toys on the ground into my box sendaways. I presumed toys to be a fairly low distraction for my food obsessed but take it or leave it with toys girl. She ended up trying to fetch the toys so what did I do I set it up so it was easier for her. I put the toys further away and reduced the distance I was trying to send her.

She also spends a lot of time doing various tricks and just mucking around with freestyle stuff at places like the pet expos so gets use to working in environments which may be overly distracting so gets opportunity for training with distractions outside of formal obedience.

As I mentioned previously we also introduce distractions just as food pots as figure 8 posts.

Edited February 19, 2007 by ness

[ness]

ROFL I need to write shorter posts as while I was writing out my huge long one I see you posted that you tend to use only positives shoey. Well my post still holds true. If that is the case I would either tuck it into a pocket or waistband if you want to leave a lead on or remove it completely and add it back in later. When I had a lead on for novice I held it with just my left hand and my left hand was still placed on my waistline. Actually if you look at my video with Ness heeling off-lead it would be roughly the same position. Its probably a fraction lower then ideally I would want it and I might try and raise it a fraction higher. You want a lead that is long enough that you don't have any extra bunching in your hand and its just long enough to have a nice loop when the dog is in the correct position.

Edited February 19, 2007 by ness