So Confused - Parvo And Puppy School

[Bambi]

Until then own backyard or vet surgery only.

Just wanted to add to some comments about vet surgeries being safe - please be careful! One of our litters caught the virus at our vet surgery. No, I don't have proof and the vets have of course denied it strenuously, but it is the only possibility. I'm certainly not saying don't go to the vets or even don't go to puppy preschool - each to their own - I'm just saying be careful!

Also, in relation to the "critical period" - this is something that not everyone agrees with. Simply because a person doesn't see eye to eye with someone who holds this as gospel, doesn't mean they are uneducated, it means they have a differing view.

[Toohey]

I am also one who will not put an incompletely vaccinated pup on the floor at the vet's clinic.

I am also not sure about this "critical period" . I had a girl come to me at 8 months old. She had never been out of the breeder's yard, but was a social butterfly in a couple of days.

[Cosmolo]

Toohey- i am honestly pleased that you had that experience but please don't think that is the case for all dogs. For those of you who doubt critical periods and the issues that can arise- i suggest you read some of the many scientific studies that have been done. My opinions are based on factual evidence- not anecdotes and hearsay.

And i have experience with the horrors of parvo virus as well. I have seen that it is a horrible disease that i would wish on no one, i have sat with a dying fully vaccinated dog infected with the virus and been present when countless innocent puppies have been euthanased as a result of parvo.

But i have also seen the terrible issues that arise from dogs who did not receive sufficient socialisation during their critical period and that is also a fate i would wish on no one. Thats why i encourage people to find a middle ground with their pups

[Jed]

Kool

Ice skating & Paragliding.

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Milosmum - The virus tends to come and go in various areas. Dog in an area contracts it, more get it - and so it goes. Sometimes there is no parvo around.

If your pup has been vaccinated, you ought not to have problems. Some breeds; rotties, dobes, staffies, chihuahuas to my knowledge are more susceptible to it than other breeds.

I'm with Toohey on socialisation - if the dog has the right temperament, and you go about it the right way - they will still turn out ok, despite no early socialisation. I bought an 8 month old as a stud dog, who had only been away from the kennels for vaccinations. Three days later he went on a 2 hour car trip, visited 2 households, and met about 20 dogs -- had a wonderful time, and behaved well. He wasn't even lead trained, but acquitted himself 100%. However, early socialisation is much better.

[Toohey]

Rooster have a read of this thread http://forums.dogzonline.com.au/index.php?showtopic=27340

Toohey- i am honestly pleased that you had that experience but please don't think that is the case for all dogs.

I am not stupid enough to think that.

Thats why i encourage people to find a middle ground with their pups

My latest pup came to me at 10 weeks old. She did four weeks of puppy school at a privately run obedience school. She was taken many places in a bag that I fashioned and carried her in until she was 18 weeks old. Just as well as she was getting damn heavy by then And please don't tell me your dog is too big too carry... buy a smaller one next time

She went for car rides every day, she went into shops in her bag, and went to watch fireworks. She met dogs belonging to freinds whom I knew were healthy and up to date with their vacc.

She met lots of children and even harrassed a three year old into saying "gee that puppy is annoying" after only five minutes, and every weekend from the time she came home she visited oldies in a nursing home where she chatted and cuddled with all the residents.

Not once did her feet touch the ground in a vet clinic or a public place frequented by dogs.

[Cosmolo]

Toohey- what you did with that pup sounds fantastic to me. So no need for the 'buy a smaller dog' comment. If more people were willing and/ or able to do what you did, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[kool]

Kool- your statement clearly illustrates your ignorance regarding a dogs critical period. Perhaps if you had experience with a dog with critical period issues, you would think differently.

I really didn't take any notice your signature thing. Which is more an advertisment than anything else. It says it all though.

I don't give any credence to those driven by the bottom line.

These days we have dog behaviouralists, dog psychologists, dog analylists, dog everyotherthingists.

Everyone of them exploiting the gullible.

Give a dog love, respect, a regular feed & a warm place to sleep & you have a loving, respectful, sated, warm happy dog that is a joy to the world.

If there are any problems it's the owner that needs training & socialising.

[haven]

Kool- your statement clearly illustrates your ignorance regarding a dogs critical period. Perhaps if you had experience with a dog with critical period issues, you would think differently.

I really didn't take any notice your signature thing. Which is more an advertisment than anything else. It says it all though.

I don't give any credence to those driven by the bottom line.

These days we have dog behaviouralists, dog psychologists, dog analylists, dog everyotherthingists.

Everyone of them exploiting the gullible.

Give a dog love, respect, a regular feed & a warm place to sleep & you have a loving, respectful, sated, warm happy dog that is a joy to the world.

If there are any problems it's the owner that needs training & socialising.

Kool you are so right, I'm sure Cosmolo has spent the last 2 years (almost) here sharing free advice and information in an effort to exploit the gullible. It's all a big conspiracy

[kool]

Kool you are so right, I'm sure Cosmolo has spent the last 2 years (almost) here sharing free advice and information in an effort to exploit the gullible. It's all a big conspiracy

Great place to tout for business.

[Staff'n'Toller]

Ahhhh I wondered what dark slimey hole kool dragged himself out of....now I know. Funny how Dougie has been so quiet lately. Choose another name kipmckool- you're way too predictable.

SOOOOOO..... a question to all those who don't like putting their pups on the ground, do you all remove your shoes and strip off your clothing at the door every time you come home from work/outings and enforce it with the rest of your family until the pup is fully vaccinated? OR alternatively, do you have a shoe bath at your front door that you stand in for ten minutes (because that's how long disinfection takes FYI) before you wear your shoes in the house?

Oh and if you do the shoe bath, with the correct dilutions of course do you scrub the soles of your shoes first? Because biological matter (dirt) renders disinfectant useless...

Mel.

Edited February 16, 2007 by Staff'n'Toller

[Cosmolo]

Just for the record- i have never received a client from this forum and thats not why i come on here. If you knew anything about me and my business, you would know that my motivation is not financial gain. Perhaps you need some training and socialisation kool?

staff n toller

[kool]

I apologise.

I salute those who do volunteer work.

[Toohey]

SOOOOOO..... a question to all those who don't like putting their pups on the ground, do you all remove your shoes and strip off your clothing at the door every time you come home from work/outings and enforce it with the rest of your family until the pup is fully vaccinated? OR alternatively, do you have a shoe bath at your front door that you stand in for ten minutes (because that's how long disinfection takes FYI) before you wear your shoes in the house?

Oh and if you do the shoe bath, with the correct dilutions of course do you scrub the soles of your shoes first? Because biological matter (dirt) renders disinfectant useless...

Mel.

Common sense tells us it is not possible to completely eliminate risks, (though yes I certainly take precautions with footwear when there are young puppies at home, in fact shoes are left at the door), but risks can minimised as much as possible.

After all, would you try and cross the road when the traffic is at it's busiest, or would you wait until there is little to no traffic and then cross?

[kool]

SOOOOOO..... a question to all those who don't like putting their pups on the ground, do you all remove your shoes and strip off your clothing at the door every time you come home from work/outings and enforce it with the rest of your family until the pup is fully vaccinated? OR alternatively, do you have a shoe bath at your front door that you stand in for ten minutes (because that's how long disinfection takes FYI) before you wear your shoes in the house?

Oh and if you do the shoe bath, with the correct dilutions of course do you scrub the soles of your shoes first? Because biological matter (dirt) renders disinfectant useless...

Mel.

Common sense tells us it is not possible to completely eliminate risks, (though yes I certainly take precautions with footwear when there are young puppies at home, in fact shoes are left at the door), but risks can minimised as much as possible.

After all, would you try and cross the road when the traffic is at it's busiest, or would you wait until there is little to no traffic and then cross?

Pedantic is pedantic.

But some people like to live on the edge.

Devil may care adventurers.

[Staff'n'Toller]

SOOOOOO..... a question to all those who don't like putting their pups on the ground, do you all remove your shoes and strip off your clothing at the door every time you come home from work/outings and enforce it with the rest of your family until the pup is fully vaccinated? OR alternatively, do you have a shoe bath at your front door that you stand in for ten minutes (because that's how long disinfection takes FYI) before you wear your shoes in the house?

Oh and if you do the shoe bath, with the correct dilutions of course do you scrub the soles of your shoes first? Because biological matter (dirt) renders disinfectant useless...

Mel.

;) :rolleyes:

Common sense tells us it is not possible to completely eliminate risks, (though yes I certainly take precautions with footwear when there are young puppies at home, in fact shoes are left at the door), but risks can minimised as much as possible.

After all, would you try and cross the road when the traffic is at it's busiest, or would you wait until there is little to no traffic and then cross?

Pedantic is pedantic.

But some people like to live on the edge.

Devil may care adventurers.

My question wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, but I am curious to know. If you are taking precautions that include pups not being allowed off your property until 13 weeks, I'm wondering how many people actually take the same precautions with themselves when coming into the property. You are just as likely to walk parvo into your house....particularly when you think about all the places we go to in a day, much more than planning outside socialisation for young pups to certain environments.

That's all, peace out.

Edited February 17, 2007 by Staff'n'Toller

[kool]

I haven't seen any posts that said not to allow puppies off the premises until after they have their second vaccs, be they thirteen weeks or older. And i don't advise puppy buyers to quarantine their puppies .

I do strongly advise they not take their puppies anywhere other unknown dogs frequent. Public parks for example. I also strongly suggest they NOT do any puppy pre school type activities until after their puppy has had their 12 week booster.

There are certain precautions that are easy to impliment & I think putting a puppy at risk for no good reason is irresponsible in the extreme.

I have not heard of any responsible breeders who advocate ''early socialisation'' at the risk of their puppies contacting any dseases, viral or otherwise.

Four to five weeks will not make any difference in the ''socialisation'' of a puppy. But it could be a life or death decision.

People wouldn't risk their kids in such a situation, why should they risk a puppy.

Risk being the operative word.

Many, many puppies are socialised early without any problems.

But not all.

[Bambi]

Staffntoller - no, I don't disinfect my shoes. I believe that it is about minimising the risks as much as possible, not keeping puppies in a bubble. I do however remove my shoes (as does anyone who enters my home) before coming inside and hands/arms are washed thoroughly when there are any young pups around. I see the biggest risk being puppies ingesting virus/disease through eating or chewing on things that are contaminated, and let's face it, there are not many pups around that don't grab anything and everything in their mouths. If a pup doesn't touch the ground outside of my home, they can't chew on anything, thereby minimising risks as much as possible.

[haven]

I believe that it is about minimising the risks as much as possible, not keeping puppies in a bubble.

That is exactly the way I feel about the importance of early socialisation. There is a happy medium and at the end of the day it sounds like we all want the same result.

I think it's great when people get their dogs from an excellent breeder who does all the right things and ends up with a well socialised dog even if they don't do a whole lot of socialising until after their full course of vaccinations is complete.

However what people like myself and Cosmolo deal with is the reality that many people don't do this. They get puppies that have been badly bred and/or raised that are severely affected by a lack of early socialisation if they do not receive adequate socialisation during the critical period.

The most recent case that springs to mind is a couple I know who got a 3 week old puppy from a 'friend' who's only advice was "give it milk and it will be fine"

This is a dog that is severely affected by lack of socialisation during the critical period and will probably suffer for the rest of it's life. The difference in this dog since they first started puppy school up to now is immense but if the owners had not actively socialised this pup from a young age it would probably be so maladjusted that it would have to be pts.

I know dogs die from parvo and other diseases but dogs die from lack of socialisation too, or worse - they live in fear for the rest of their lives

EFS

Edited February 19, 2007 by haven

[Bambi]

Haven, that is truly disgusting. How could anyone take a puppy away at 3 weeks??? I guess we are really talking about completely different sets of circumstances. My comments are based on pups bred by an ethical, registered breeder who will raise a confident puppy through attention to temperaments of parents and a loving environment until at least 8 weeks. A puppy taken away from it's mother and littermates at 3 weeks of age is obviously going to need additional socialisation because it has not received the natural socialisation that generally occurs. In this instance, I personally would still not take the puppy out until after vaccination was complete, but I also have other dogs at home for the pup to interact with. For me, I would always look for other options such as friends/family with vaccinated, healthy animals however each to their own. I am sure there are situations out there where that is not possible.

[Jed]

Goodness, is Krool rooly Dougie? Rooly?

Tell me it isn't so.

Now, back to the business in hand ----

This is just what I think, and which has been firmed up by discussing parvo with various vets.

Staff nToller]

You are just as likely to walk parvo into your house....particularly when you think about all the places we go to in a day

I think there is a huge possibility of the pup standing/walking in some parvo virus at the park, or on the footpath - and indeed, I do believe a lot contract it that way. I think they then rub their feet on their face, or lick their paws, or by other means, transmit it to their mouths.....

However, I wonder about walking it home on your shoes. If you walk in parvo - you then continue to walk, and depending on the distance you walk, the possibilities are good of you "walking off" the parvo on your travels. If you walked in it close to home, your chances of taking it inside are better than if you walked in it some distance from home.

Same as washing your hands - the mechanical action of the water removes as many germs (not necessarily parvo!!) as does the soap, according to a health inspector I know, and in fact, if you wash your hands in soap and water, although the soap is not a virocide, it and the washing action, will probably remove viruses.

Just something I have thought about. Not that I would be careless!!