Bone Problems Due To Rapid Growth

[nattiej1976]

I have a question that im hoping might beable to get some advice from some of you.

Kato Akita pup nearly 8 months old now and about 5 weeks ago I noticed that his rear legs had a nasty twist when he was walking.. Its hard to explain in words but basically when the weight of his legs hit the ground you can see his feet twist out (reverse of a pigeon toe i suppose) I took him to the vet and Xrays were taken, and we discovered that due to rapid bone growth, a bone in each of his rear legs had not kept up with the rest, and there are gaps between these bones and the growth plate, needless to say these bones have not fused because they dont reach.

The vet is not certain as to the best way to manage this problem and is doing some research for me (she has not actually seen it this severely before)

I thought I would ask you all if you have had the same or similar problems with any of your dogs, and if so what did you do to help see your dog through, and the sucess of your efforts

http://s143.photobucket.com/albums/r149/na...nt=DSCF0747.flv

Edited to add link to video taken today, for those that wanted to see the walk, hopefully it works. Im not a master videographer so please forgive the lack of skill

Edited February 14, 2007 by nattiej1976

[Akitaowner]

Hi

Sorry to hear bout Kato's troubles.

Have you contacted your breeder to let them know whats happening - they may know more about it than the vet (often is the case with large breed concerns )

do you mean that his joint hasnt formed properly?

some dogs get what's known as 'cow hock' which looks like their legs wobble when they move from behind, which i was under the impression, is due to bad hips - but that maybe a myth!

hopefully he will grow out of whatever it is, without too much trouble later on....

[Scales of Justice]

What diet have you got him on?

You will need to make sure he gets a VERY BALANCED diet in the future. Buy a Large Breed formulation of a premium food, Eukanuba, Proplan etc and feed only that - no extras. These foods are balanced for proper growth of large breeds and substitute foods (meat, chicken etc are not meant to be given with them). Once you get the BALANCE right you may see an improvement. Large Breed formulations have a lower calcium intake for large breeds than for smaller breeds and the object is to make sure the dog does not grow too fast. Make sure you keep protein levels down to about 26% as in large breed foods. It may sound "cruel" not to give the puppy anything else except the large breed formulation, but in this case you have to be "cruel" to be kind.

They key word is BALANCE. Anything extra that you give this dog will disturb the balance.

[JAG]

Have Pm'd you.

[wylie]

Pat Hastings of the Puppy Puzzle talks about this in her books.

You need to get him off all premium foods and get him onto a medium level ADULT food and add up to 1000mg of Vitamin C daily to his diet.

NO added calcium or any other additives.

Do it immediately!!

[Tassie]

Is there an orthopedic specialist who comes in to Launceston? If not, there is one who comes over to Hobart every 6 weeks or so - to the North Hobart Vet clinic. Might be worth a try.

[nattiej1976]

Is there an orthopedic specialist who comes in to Launceston? If not, there is one who comes over to Hobart every 6 weeks or so - to the North Hobart Vet clinic. Might be worth a try.

Our vet is going to try and get us in to see her, not sure when next in tas but will be heading south when she is next here.

Thankyou

[nattiej1976]

Hi

Sorry to hear bout Kato's troubles.

Have you contacted your breeder to let them know whats happening - they may know more about it than the vet (often is the case with large breed concerns )

do you mean that his joint hasnt formed properly?

some dogs get what's known as 'cow hock' which looks like their legs wobble when they move from behind, which i was under the impression, is due to bad hips - but that maybe a myth!

hopefully he will grow out of whatever it is, without too much trouble later on....

Breeder has been advised, has not come accross quite this sort of thing before.

Thankfully hips are really good, vet did do xrays of them at the sime time as his legs, because the initial thought was something wrong with the hips, but thankfully has been determined that it is just the short bones

[Akitaowner]

what have you been feeding him out of interest....

[nattiej1976]

What diet have you got him on?

You will need to make sure he gets a VERY BALANCED diet in the future. Buy a Large Breed formulation of a premium food, Eukanuba, Proplan etc and feed only that - no extras. These foods are balanced for proper growth of large breeds and substitute foods (meat, chicken etc are not meant to be given with them). Once you get the BALANCE right you may see an improvement. Large Breed formulations have a lower calcium intake for large breeds than for smaller breeds and the object is to make sure the dog does not grow too fast. Make sure you keep protein levels down to about 26% as in large breed foods. It may sound "cruel" not to give the puppy anything else except the large breed formulation, but in this case you have to be "cruel" to be kind.

They key word is BALANCE. Anything extra that you give this dog will disturb the balance.

its not cruel to limit the varience in food at all...well i dont think so anyway.

His diet is already very limited and basic, we actually still only feed him what he was being fed by the breeder, so we have him on puppy supercoat and roo meat mix, and every now and again puppy pal (keep it in the cupboard just incase i run out of the roo meat) Otherwise not too much more passes his lips. We have recently reduced the ammount of food intake on this diet at the vets reccomendation, in hope to prevent any further rapid growth. I must admit i did not think of taking him off puppy food and switching over to the large breed food as yet. maybe from what you are saying we should at least cut out the roo meat......will give it a go, as I assume that that type of meat would be pretty high in protein too.

Thanks

[nattiej1976]

Pat Hastings of the Puppy Puzzle talks about this in her books.

You need to get him off all premium foods and get him onto a medium level ADULT food and add up to 1000mg of Vitamin C daily to his diet.

NO added calcium or any other additives.

Do it immediately!!

Im really glad to hear you say this one. When I contacted breeder she suggested vit C too, so we started that a couple of days ago, but it is good to hear somone else reccomend it too.

Thanks

Edited February 14, 2007 by nattiej1976

[Akitaowner]

both my pups came on advance large breed puppy growth, and they both still get a cup ful each morning.

Dinner they get barf style bones and veggie patties with added Vit C amougst other things

i would assume you would prob need to get him on the lean side to help the situation if he isnt already

can you explain a bit more about exactly what has happened to the bones - im a biologist and am very interested to find out - what bone is small? sorry you dont have to answer me im just interested (even more so as he is an akita )

[nattiej1976]

both my pups came on advance large breed puppy growth, and they both still get a cup ful each morning.

Dinner they get barf style bones and veggie patties with added Vit C amougst other things

i would assume you would prob need to get him on the lean side to help the situation if he isnt already

can you explain a bit more about exactly what has happened to the bones - im a biologist and am very interested to find out - what bone is small? sorry you dont have to answer me im just interested (even more so as he is an akita )

More than happy to answer your questions, if only I could. When I next speak to the vet I will ask which bone it is effected and I will let you know.

Thankfully he is quite lean (although you wouldnt know it to look at him, tha fur very deciveing. the only time we can proove to anyone that he is quite thin is to throw him in the pool and get him wet through )

Advance large breed puppy food not heard of that one, do you know where I can get it from? Im more than willing to give anything a go to try and sort this out for him.

Now as far as the problems with the bones all I know for sure is that when the xrays were taken the vet noticed that on of the bones in each rear leg (the ones between the knee and the ankle) is too short. She said that she could see a large space of nothing between the bone and the plate that it is meant to be growing into. Im not sure if it is at the knee side or the ankle side, but if you saw the way he walked it looks like it would be the ankle side (his twist only seems to be in his feet)_ but I could be wrong because when she showed me the xrays and the space it was on the top side of the area?

I will get back to you when I find out more, you dont mind if I PM you the info when I get it because this thread my well have moved pages back by then?

[Miranda]

Does it affect him at all, ie. can he run and jump around without discomfort? Does he do this at a trot or a walk or both?

I would be interested in seeing his rear movement, it's hard to envisage based on your description. Any chance of a short video showing the dog moving away from the camera at a trot?

[Akitaowner]

no probs - let me know when you find out....

advance food is fairly available here from petbarn and a lot of vets - it is classed as a premum food i think - i add a little tinned fish to the kibble to make it more interesting also good for oil

maybe as you have caught this quite early while he is still growing - it will give him a chance to sort it out before the growth plate fuses - do you have a doggy hydro pool anywhere down there - it might be good for his tendons and ligaments for exercise without the stress - but of course consult your vet on that one

if you want any more info on what i feed my furkids give me a shout by PM

Also Mickatie come to mind as someone who has done a lot of research on skeletal structure of med/large breed dogs and whats affects them, maybe give her a shout - but i would expect she would want to know all the details like me

[Akitaowner]

i just found this - ring any bells??

OSTEOCHONDROSIS

Osteochondrosis (OCD) is a focal area of disruption in endochondral ossification. OCD occurs in the physis and/or epiphyseal regions of growth cartilage. This disease can be generalized or systemic and is widespread among young, rapidly growing, warm blooded, domesticated species and in humans. In all species the etiology is considered multifactorial. In the dog, OCD risk factors are associated with age, gender, breed, rapid growth, and nutrient (primarily calcium) excesses.(1,11-14)

All large and giant breeds are at increased risk for OCD, with Great Danes, Labrador retrievers, Newfoundlands, and rottweilers having the highest risk.(14) Males have an increased risk of OCD in the proximal humerus, but gender relationships are not found with OCD involving other joints.(14)

Osteochondrosis lesions are routinely found in pigs as young as 25 days of age.(15) These findings would help substantiate that OCD may be caused by a localized, primary effect on the chondrocyte rather than secondary effects of biomechanic force because rapid growth and weight gain are much less of a factor at this age. Regardless of the pathogenesis of OCD, the underlying role of nutrition is still a factor. In the growing puppy, over nutrition can result in a mismatch between body weight and skeletal growth, which can lead to overloading of skeletal structures. Nutrition of the mother may also play a role in the development of OCD in the offspring.(16)

Although generalized nutrient excesses have been blamed for OCD lesions, there is increasing evidence implicating specific nutrients. Excessive calcium intake resulting in a hypercalcitoninism and hypoparathyroidism(2) manifests as retarded bone maturation, inhibition of osteoclastic activity, and slowed cartilage maturation. These effects on bone and cartilage increase the incidence of osteochondral lesions in articular and physeal cartilage.(2) Osteochondrosis of the acetabular rim has been proposed to lead to a shallow acetabulum and subsequent CHD in the dog. Most of the studies evaluating the effect of vitamin C on OCD have used the pig as a research model and agree that vitamin C supplementation has no effect on the incidence of OCD.(8,17)

Indicates you might want to check his thyroid function too....

[nattiej1976]

Does it affect him at all, ie. can he run and jump around without discomfort? Does he do this at a trot or a walk or both?

I would be interested in seeing his rear movement, it's hard to envisage based on your description. Any chance of a short video showing the dog moving away from the camera at a trot?

there does not appear to be any discomfort

i am actually going to film it tonight as somone else has asked me to so they can see it as well so I will post it here once the video is done so you can see it too.

[nattiej1976]

i just found this - ring any bells??

OSTEOCHONDROSIS

Osteochondrosis (OCD) is a focal area of disruption in endochondral ossification. OCD occurs in the physis and/or epiphyseal regions of growth cartilage. This disease can be generalized or systemic and is widespread among young, rapidly growing, warm blooded, domesticated species and in humans. In all species the etiology is considered multifactorial. In the dog, OCD risk factors are associated with age, gender, breed, rapid growth, and nutrient (primarily calcium) excesses.(1,11-14)

All large and giant breeds are at increased risk for OCD, with Great Danes, Labrador retrievers, Newfoundlands, and rottweilers having the highest risk.(14) Males have an increased risk of OCD in the proximal humerus, but gender relationships are not found with OCD involving other joints.(14)

Osteochondrosis lesions are routinely found in pigs as young as 25 days of age.(15) These findings would help substantiate that OCD may be caused by a localized, primary effect on the chondrocyte rather than secondary effects of biomechanic force because rapid growth and weight gain are much less of a factor at this age. Regardless of the pathogenesis of OCD, the underlying role of nutrition is still a factor. In the growing puppy, over nutrition can result in a mismatch between body weight and skeletal growth, which can lead to overloading of skeletal structures. Nutrition of the mother may also play a role in the development of OCD in the offspring.(16)

Although generalized nutrient excesses have been blamed for OCD lesions, there is increasing evidence implicating specific nutrients. Excessive calcium intake resulting in a hypercalcitoninism and hypoparathyroidism(2) manifests as retarded bone maturation, inhibition of osteoclastic activity, and slowed cartilage maturation. These effects on bone and cartilage increase the incidence of osteochondral lesions in articular and physeal cartilage.(2) Osteochondrosis of the acetabular rim has been proposed to lead to a shallow acetabulum and subsequent CHD in the dog. Most of the studies evaluating the effect of vitamin C on OCD have used the pig as a research model and agree that vitamin C supplementation has no effect on the incidence of OCD.(8,17)

Indicates you might want to check his thyroid function too....

JAG also gave me some information on another condition that it could be as well, I will mention this one to the vet as well as the one JAG advised me of to see if it is a possibility.

thankyou for helping me out here. I am a complete idot when it comes to medical things, and could find nothing on google myself that could lead the way.

thankyou again, will keep you posted

[Akitaowner]

just watched the vid - doesnt look as bad as you describe here!! and he appears to move freely (without any pain) so i would expect something can be done to prevent further damage to the joints.

Also have to add - i love the fluffies - so cute!!! hes one handsome man! (and i love the fact his little ears stayed down - very cute puppy!!)

[MonElite]

OT - why is he wearing a "jumper" ?