Guys/gals - Urgent Help Needed!

[wolf82]

My dogs have been having issues with fighting each other.

Background info:

One dog (Loki) is 16 months old, intact male AmStaff.

The other (Odin) is 14 months old, neutered Sibe Huskie.

The other day Loki had a bone out the back (i was working out there, fixing a door etc) and Odin was harassing him, Loki has been fine with bones for a long time, so i was a retard and thought Loki would ignore him.

5 seconds later, i turned back to the door i heard the fight, Loki had Odin on his back by the throat and was shaking him around like a rag doll. I managed to get them apart, no damage really, Odins fur saved him and Loki had a few scratches.

Next day (today):

Odin is acting VERY funny towards Loki, Loki is back to his good old self, but everytime Loki is near Odin, Odin goes all stiff and his hackles go up and he just slinks past Loki, like hes walking on egg shells. Loki normally just ignores him.

Loki was sleeping on the lawn and Odin walked up to him, then went all stiff (Loki is sound alseep) and then walked really close past him with his hackles up, then walked past him a 2nd and 3rd time, exactally the same way. On the 3rd pass, Loki got up and kinda snapped at his face, not really a snap, just put his mouth close to him and clicks his teeth shut, he did it a few times before i separated them.

Few hours later they are in the kitchen and Odin after being normal for a few hours, decides to go all "stiff again" like hes puffing himself up. Both dogs were around a bag of food that had a small hole in it (didnt see until afterwards) and Loki did the shutting his teeth at Odins face again.

They both came away from the food and Loki was standing still watching Odin, when Odin walked up to him all stiff with his hackles up, and in a flash they were into it. Once again, Loki had Odin on the ground by the throat and was shaking him around. Got them apart, Odin had a gaping hole in his face and Loki has a puncture through his lip, from inside to out (like he bit himself through his own lip).

Dogs were separated etc, food was put away, and new rules brought in in regards to feeding, leaving empty bowls on ground etc.

Now, my issue is, i cant tell whos starting the fights...

Odin has ALWAYS been cheeky, always pushing Lokis buttons. They were play fighting before and Odin just walks up and grabs Lokis face, starts pulling his skin, and then pawing his face (very rude). Loki jumps on him and pins him down, then Odin goes feral and tries to bite Loki, Loki then starts growling really low and trying to bite him back. I pulled them apart and gave both into trouble, but Odin kept annoying Loki who was sitting next to me...

The major problem is, that these guys have been fine for over a year until the bone incident (which was my fault, im a moron). Now, im scared that their play fight might esculate to a real fight when im not around, and i dont want to come home to a dead huskie.

I have booked Loki in to get neutered next week (could this be the problem? Or is it Odin pushing Loki and Loki is retaliating?) and hopefully this will curb Loki being dominant and also his humping of Odin.

Can anyone tell me what the stiff legs by Odin means? Why would Odin instigate a fight that he cant win? Is he just worried that Loki will attack him again and going all stiff before it even happens?

I need some advice guys, please.

Steve

[Vickie]

Sounds like you need to get some professional help. I wouldn't be trying to deal with something like this over the internet. It is way too important to get the right advice. If not you could do more harm than good & it's not worth the risks.

Where are you located? Maybe someone here can recommend a good behaviouralist close to you.

[wolf82]

Adelaide, SA.

[shekhina]

Professional advice definitely needed. Two males, both starting to come into maturity...bones? Disaster area, never, ever, ever again. Naughty you :D

[Erny]

..... both starting to come into maturity ...

I agree with Shekhina that this is likely to have something to do with it and expect this is why you are identifying behaviour changes. Many people get lulled into a false sense of security when their two young dogs get on well. They think friendly interaction will never change, and forget about the hormonal influences that will often alter status and instigate heirarchy challenges. But this is merely my internet opinion. As I have not had the opportunity to observe the dogs' relationship (and yours with them) you should not assume that heirarchy is the only object of your dogs' aggression.

Engaging a behaviourist is the only way to properly obtain the advice you seek, and is the only person who will be in a position qualified to give it.

Edited February 11, 2007 by Erny

[dogdude]

Best solution is to build a run and alternate them. Bull breeds are such loyal dogs that they wont want to share you with any other pet. In my experience they are best kept without competition for your attention.

Dos'nt really matter which dog is at fault. At the end of the day, I dont think neutering will prevent a dead Husky

[wolf82]

Run is not possible, i rent.

Im also out at work from 8:30am until 5:30pm, and i cant crate a dog for 9 hours.

They were fine all of yesterday, Odin was back to his usual self of grabbing Lokis face and trying to get him to play, and Loki was laying there asleep.

As for the bull breeds not wanting to share affection, this is not true at all, Loki has never been jealous of another dog, never pushed them out of the way to get attention from me, or anything like that. Hes generally a pretty easy going laid back pooch, one of the reasons i DIDNT want to get him neutered, was because i didnt want him to become any more "chilled" out.

Steve

[wolfgirl]

Definitely hormones are apart of this, I know you said you are renting but what about a wired run you can take with you when you go, surely the landlord wouldn't mind that, it doesn't have to be a permanent fixture but will keep the dogs safe for the mean time while you are at work.

[dogdude]

Hi Wolf82

You have a very young dog that has not matured. Dont think your problem is about to go away any time soon. I have been keeping multiple bull breeds together for over 15 years and they do much better without having to compete with other pets for your attention.

Cant understand why you "dont" want a "chilled out dog"?? Not sure what you mean by that? Neutering wont change his temperment in general.

[wolf82]

Hes a couch potato, i was worried that neutering will make him even more sedated / relaxed.

He would happily spend most of his days laying in the sun, or cuddling on the sofa.

Steve

[Greytmate]

There is a danger that they will fight over something while you are out. If one catches a bird for instance, or digs up an old bone, they will probably fight over it.

I would agree with seperating these dogs unless you are supervising them.

Can anyone tell me what the stiff legs by Odin means?

It means what you think that it means. He is puffing himself up. He is feeling insecure about the situation and is not wanting to back down.

Why would Odin instigate a fight that he cant win?

Because he feels that the rewards are worth fighting for. He doesn't really know that he can't win.

Is he just worried that Loki will attack him again and going all stiff before it even happens?

Probably, and from what you are saying it sounds like he is not choosing react submissively in an attempt to avoid a conflict.

Now, my issue is, i cant tell whos starting the fights...

Who is starting the fight is not the real issue, the fights themselves are the issue. It normally takes two dogs to fight. One to challenge and one to meet the challenge. There may be more going on that we don't know about too.

Desexing may reduce aggression, but may not help at all in this situation, as your dogs are fighting over resources, and as long as they value those resources enough to fight over, they will.

Professional help is the way to go, because we can't see how these dogs interact, and we don't know if the dogs are behaving normally or not.

[dogdude]

Almost every bull breed I have owned have been total couch potatoes. Thats why they do not make fantastic guard dogs. Most dogs, as they fully mature develop their natural protective instincts. Most young dogs I have owned will barley raise an eyelid if someone enters the yard.

Much safer to own a couch potatoe than a dangerous dog.

[wolf82]

True that Dogdude.

They were fine last night and this morning, so i moved all toys from the yard, fed apart etc etc.

I will look into a portable dog run later today.

Thanks a lot for the advice guys.

Steve

[Erny]

Wolf82 .... you could entertain the idea of "chemical" desexing. Done by way of an implant the effects of which last 6 months (they're working on a 12 month implant). This way you would be able to see the effects of desexing without it being a permanent status. If it works to the benefit of the dogs and their relationship then it would be worthwhile considering permanent neuturing.

If neutering the dog is out of the question for you, then chemical castration would be the next best alternative. Better than nothing IMO.

Note: IMO, castration does not alter learnt behaviour, however it does have the propensity to raising the threshold for aggression.

[wolf82]

Can i get some advice on how to get them apart if it happens again?

When the second fight started yesterday i was out, and the only one home was house mate (who i trust 100% with my dogs, she owns Odin). She only weighs 55kg, was was totally helpless to get them apart.

We dont own a break stick.

I have read that she can use a choke chain and choke Loki off of odin? Does this work?

Steve

[mita]

..... both starting to come into maturity ...

Many people get lulled into a false sense of security when their two young dogs get on well. They think friendly interaction will never change, and forget about the hormonal influences that will often alter status and instigate heirarchy challenges. But this is merely my internet opinion.

Engaging a behaviourist is the only way to properly obtain the advice you seek, and is the only person who will be in a position qualified to give it.

Totally agree with your general point that young dogs can get on well. THEN...as the 'maturing' process sets in, so can follow the heirarchial challenges. Have just been discussing that with pet owners of my small breed dog of interest...where it's known that 'maturing' adult age is about 3 yrs (this small breed matures a bit later). And, hey presto....at what age have people found trouble starting to stir?...when around 3 yrs.

I've got a reference somewhere to a dog behaviourist in SA....recommended by a good behaviourist in Qld. If you want it....I could see if I still have it.

[Staranais]

Can i get some advice on how to get them apart if it happens again?

When the second fight started yesterday i was out, and the only one home was house mate (who i trust 100% with my dogs, she owns Odin). She only weighs 55kg, was was totally helpless to get them apart.

We dont own a break stick.

I have read that she can use a choke chain and choke Loki off of odin? Does this work?

Steve

It's very very hard for one person to break up a serious dog fight by themselves. It's also extremely dangerous, especially if one dog redirects his frustration on to the human. I wouldn't expect your flatmate to be able to do it, and to be frank, it's unfair to expect her to try.

To break up a dog fight, it's best to have at least two people. If you have three people, get two people holding the back legs of the dogs (wheelbarrow style) and have the person in the middle try to separate them (use a breakstick, splash of cold water to startle them, choking one off with a flat collar) so that the others can wheel the dogs apart and away. If you only have two people, your best option is to have one person grab the aggressor by the back legs and the other person attempt to get him off (the other dog will hopefully flee when he's free to do so). Please don't get your face anywhere near those fangs. Be aware that breaking up a dog fight is dangerous. Be aware that either dog could bite you by mistake. Be aware that either dog could redirect and attack you when you prevent him from getting to the other dog (even friendly dogs can do this to their owners when they're frustrated or stressed).

IMO it's way better to prevent dog fights from happening, by keeping the dogs separated when they're not being strictly supervised. When they're out together, keep an eye on them and break up any likely altercations before they become fights. If you don't have enough control of your dogs to do that then it's probably best to only have one out at a time until the problem is sorted.

I personally wouldn't let your flatmate let both dogs out together while she is home alone. Have her crate one dog while the other dog is out, alternating dogs. You really don't want to come home to seriously injured dogs, or worse, a seriously injured flatmate.

I really do recommend you get a good professional behaviourist in to help remedy this behaviour.

This site may be of some use to you:

http://www.leerburg.com/dogfight.htm

[Erny]

Can i get some advice on how to get them apart if it happens again?

Whilst I understand why you potentially might want and need this information, it would be best to work pro-actively as well as put up meanwhile measures to prevent the occurrence, rather than focussing too much on what to do if it occurs again.

Not intended to inflame ..... but not sure from this thread what measures you've decided to undertake to work to resolve the problem.

[Kavik]

I agree with the others

Separate when you are not there to supervise and get some professional assistance.

Two male dogs the same age and given both their breeds . . .

[petsearch]

We are suffering the same problem in our home at the moment, 2 dogs - 1 male large terrier (big baby), 1 female -staffy x ridgeback, both desexed, and it is also over any type of food, even just the smell of dry biscuits it seems. Luckily I have been here each time to break up the fights, but there have been injuries to the dogs each time, and it started as we moved into a new house, and they found bones and old dog biscuits that had been left behind buried by the dog that used to live here. Our biggest fear is that they may find a dead bird, or mouse when we are not home, and there would be no one to stop the fight. As we are the only ones with big dogs in the neighbourhood and our neighbours have said they are scared of our staffy x because of how she looks.....

We have been feeding them separately for the last year or so due to some aggression over bones one day, and we also use the triangle of temptation when it comes to feeding and that works wonderfully, but this aggression we don't know how to deal with, as our staffy x doesn't give any warning growl or snarl, she just gives a look and then attacks.

Has anyone delt with aggression before? Any suggestions?