Calling In The Experts

[WreckitWhippet]

Ok , my now 4 month old Border baby, has been very difficult to toilet train. He is now fine with telling me that he needs to go out for a poo, no problems there, he cries too me and I know it's time to let him out.

I am still having problems with him weeing in the house and the crate. He loves his crate, he races from the back door and dives into it, it's his safe haven and he appears to enjoy being in there, but the minute you let him in the back door, he goes straight in and piddles.

It doesn't matter if he's been out side for three minutes or three hours, the second he comes back in the house or crate, he piddles, he has done this since day one. He does not urinate excessively, just the usual baby piddles but he is hell bent on doing it inside.

It is now beyond me. He's a smart puppy but he just doesn't get it. He's been the first that I have been unable to toilet train.

He's not forced to stay locked in his crate for long periods and he's allowed to come and go from the house as he pleases, he enjoys his own time out the back and entertains himself and at times he seeks company, which he is not denied.

[Janba]

Does he piddle outside and if he does is it on grass or a hard surface?

[WreckitWhippet]

Does he piddle outside and if he does is it on grass or a hard surface?

He will go on the grass. He was previously in a kennel situation, but he was let out to toilet and was one of the cleaner puppies in the litter.

It's like he saves it up, he can honestly be out there for hours, doing the usual standing and waiting for him to go to the toilet, so you can praise him, just doesn't work. I can catch him in the act of piddling inside, I know it's coming but I don;t know if I should severly reprimand him as he does it or not. Borders are quite soft as far as temperament and don't take punishment all that well. There are some breeds like the Pugs, that you just can't insult but it's easy to put the Borders off.

I don;t want to undo all the good work that I have done in other areas, as he's a lovely outgoing boy and confident in the show ring with me.

[Rottsaroundtheclock]

I don't know how much help this would be.

Had the same thing with one of my 6 mth old Rott pups. I first for me too. Iniatially I think she did it because she worked out that if she wee'd in her crate she got let outside again while I cleaned it. When I twigged to her surreptious train of the human method, I started to get someone to hold her while I cleaned her crate out. Straight back in she went. She was not impressed.

At times the piddling continued, I started to take her out at set times. I created a wee routine. And so far this is working. Ofcourse it means no more sleep ins on the weekend. But "touch wood" it's working.

I would also be looking to see if there is a physiological reason. Such as infection.

[Janba]

I know what you mean about BCs being soft dogs.

It sounds like he has got the idea into his head that he should pee inside or in his crate, not on the grass.

I take you have tried a firm no and picking up midstream and taking outside.

Maybe try training him with one of those absorbant pee mats or newspaper if he is paper trained. Place it where he usually pees when he comes in. When he comes in put him onto the mat to pee. Gradually move the mat closer to the door and then out the door and onto the grass. Then make it smaller until it is only a little square. Hopefully he will then transfer the peeing on the mat or paper to peeing on the grass.

I used this method on a pup that had been raised on concrete and didn't really see grass till she was 3 months old, it took a while but it worked.

[JulesP]

My border was being a bit pesky about peeing inside and as he is very soft I was loath to tell him off too strongly. However one day I had only just let him in and he peed. I was rather cross and told him so and tossed him back outside. You do not know how bad I felt when I realised that it wasn't pee!! The fridge was leaking Pup never peed inside again!!!

If you can catch him then definately tell him off. Could you also try whipping him straight out of the crate and back outside? It would be better if you can stop him from peeing, so the second he goes to squat - outside. You could also try feeding him in the crate. I have used that method before - feed where they are peeing.

Don't be fooled by the soft, sooky border act though. I still tell mine off if he needs it, but in a gently gently manner.

[WreckitWhippet]

We've got a nice wee routine happening, it's just the wrong way round.

It's not infection related , he urinates just like any other puppy his age , it's just in the wrong place, if he had an infection he would wee frequently in his crate, which he does not do, it's just the initial come inside and wee in the crate.

Reprimand I shall.

ETA: he eats in his crate

Edited February 11, 2007 by Warley

[Vickie]

I would not reprimand him. I think there are better ways.

Why not teach him to wee on command? It doesn't take long & is very useful throughout their life.

Of my four, Noah & Shine wee on command,

Zeus just wees whenever & wherever Noah does

& Trim just when she needs to.

Can you use one of your other dogs to get him going? I take all mine out every night before bed, or before I go out. I give them the command & we don't come inside till they are all done. Each one gets praised & allowed back in when they have been.

[WreckitWhippet]

Can't teach him to wee on command outside as he only goes inside in the crate or on the floor. Would you suggest teaching him the wee command while he's peeing in his crate ?

All the others go out before bed and go to the toilet, he goes with them, they all pee and come back to the door, he can spend a couple of hours out there, you can't praise what doesn't happen. I have seen him pee once outside on the grass and praised him, he looked at me and smiled and went back inside and piddled in his crate.

[Cosmolo]

I would give him a low level correction that serves only to disrupt him from the behaviour. While i think you have to be extremely careful giving corrections for toilet training, i do think that a pup of his age can take a well timed low intensity correction to show him that the behaviour is unwanted, then take him straight outside. Otherwise, it doesn't matter to him whether he toilets inside or out and he's obviously chosen which spot he prefers.

[Vickie]

Can't teach him to wee on command outside as he only goes inside in the crate or on the floor. Would you suggest teaching him the wee command while he's peeing in his crate ?

No, obviously not. I would teach him the command when he is let out of the crate in the morning. Are you saying it might take him 2 hours to pee outside once he comes out of his crate in the morning? If he only pees when he goes in & not through the night, then he should need to go when he comes out, shouldn't he?

In the meantime, does he have bedding in his crate? I would be putting him the smallest crate you have with no bedding for a few nights & see if he still pees in there. That way he has to lay in it & it is not soaked up by the bedding...and you know how much he is doing.

[Alpha]

Could it be excited piddles or "unsure of what I need to do" wee?

Lawson was fine, pooing outside, letting us know when he needed to go, but would come inside and whizz. whiz, whizz

I realised it was when the kids were inside/home and he was excited to see them but other times it was because he was confused as to why he was inside as I would let him in at varying times. I changed his inside time to a routine, ( AM after kids were at school for an hour or so and again after lunch ) then no inside once the kids were home until they had greeted him OUTSIDE and he had settled, inside time was again before tea for a play with the kids and then later for a cuddle and a nap.

[sas]

Although I think Vickie has some great points, I still think it's important to repremand the dog, I understand that they are sensitive so care needs to be taken.

Toileting on command is great, for me personaly I also need the dog to know that when I'm pre-occupied such as in the shower etc it is not acceptable to toilet inside.

I think I'll have to speak more to Vickie about her method as it may be something that I can work with my new puppy coming soon.

Without the repremand I feel it's difficult for the puppy to understand that this action of weeing inside in wrong. But it's the level of repremand you'll need to figure out for yourself, perhaps not even a firm No, just present the body language?

I have been on the reciveing end of toilet training a sensitive BC youngan and did stuff it up in the first week because I got the level of repremand wrong but got it back on track in the 2nd week, unfortunately the circumstance wasn't the same as yours.

Edited February 11, 2007 by sas

[WreckitWhippet]

I've had a touch of success, he still won't go outside, I think he'd hold it untill he busted, but I have reprimanded him as soon as he starts and he will now stop mid stream when I do this, so that's a bit of a win.

I know what people mean when they talk about fidning the appropriate level, too loud and heavy and you risk him wetting from fright, not enough and he continues on.

We will get there.

I did try the smaller crate and no bedding but laying where he piddles made no difference to him, he didn;t care about it.

Alpha, he's not really one of those piddle cause I'm not sure or piddle cause you got me excited puppies. That would make it easy, take him out the back and get him excited and hey presto

[Erny]

And when he does go outside (he'll have to at some stage), grab every opportunity to say your "pee" command. Because you're in the teaching phase and don't want to render the word useless, make sure you say it when the stream starts, not before. And of course give him praise/reward. This will double as reward for going outside and reward for going on command.

My previous girl Kal would toilet on command. It was so handy. Because she would join me for lectures/talks and I couldn't leave class to toilet her I could take her to an appropriate place and give her the toilet command. There were times when she was actually empty ..... but she'd squat all the same.

ETA: Think carefully about what command you want to use ..... you might have to call it out in public at times.

Edited February 12, 2007 by Erny

[WreckitWhippet]

None of my others have a problem just him. All of my adults will toilet when told, so there is hope for him yet

ETA: I'm about to take him out again, so fingers crossed I can get him to go

Edited February 12, 2007 by Warley

[whatevah]

So if he is in a habit of pissing in the crate as soon as he is let inside, what would happen if there was no crate there, what would he do? What about a different crate?

Its annoying when you think you know how to train something and it works for every dog and then a dog comes a long who thinks differently.

[WreckitWhippet]

So if he is in a habit of pissing in the crate as soon as he is let inside, what would happen if there was no crate there, what would he do? What about a different crate?

Its annoying when you think you know how to train something and it works for every dog and then a dog comes a long who thinks differently.

He pees on the floor if he does not have access to the crate. He's not fussy about whose crate he pees in either. I have to keep the door to the others closed, so he doesn't wreck the older dogs beds.

I agree about the training , I've had to vary training slightly from dog to dog, but to me house training is a basic not rocket science, except in this case :p

[Erny]

Warley - we all know your dog needs to exhibit the behaviour you're after so you can reward for it (and thus BUILD on that), but understand making your dog pee at the right time so that you can do so, is the big problem.

So my suggestion here isn't going to be easy. But here goes ........

Have a day - one where you have no commitments that can't be deferred. A day to spend for as long as it takes. Preferably a day where you can spend time doing similar the following day (eg. weekend). Take weather into account too.

Have your dog outside. You can be inside or out ..... but you need to be in a position where you can AT THE VERY LEAST observe the very moment your dog pees while he is out there. Once he has pee'd, praise him and let him inside.

To assist in speeding up the process, put some water out for him that is perhaps "flavoured" with something he really likes. Eg. Chicken stock; A tincture of milk. So that he drinks lots of it. He CANNOT hold forever. You might be able to fit in two or three of these sessions through the course of one whole day.

The time you need to dedicate to this regime should become less and less. But make it clear he must pee before he is allowed to come in. Coming in is his reward for doing so.

You can perhaps do this when you get home from work etc. too.