Stays - How To Train Using A Tug Toy/drive

[whatevah]

With Tia having lots of problems with stays. Can only get up to 5 seconds at my side without moving. This is when I use food. She will either move or start sniffing around. Sit is worse than drop.

Have found that using a tug, she will stay longer and I can move further away because she remains focused on the tug.

How do I build up longer stays, and what do I do with the tug? Do I somehow start to hide it, so it is not a lure?

She is more tug motivated then toy. I can throw a piece of food, she will run for the piece of food and then charge back for the tug. With Moses who is more food motivated he would run for the food and not play tug as wants more food.

[Staff'n'Toller]

How old is she now? Where are you practising your stays? Are you using a bridge or a release command to end the behaviour?

Mel.

Edited February 4, 2007 by Staff'n'Toller

[leopuppy04]

I'd gradually start hiding the tug the better she gets. Eventually, how about doing what people do with food when they have problems with stays - putting the tug behind her and then releasing her behind her to get the tug for a good play?

[MonElite]

How is she in the TOT?

[Staranais]

I don't know much about training in drive yet, so my answer might not help you very much. But to me, it sounds like you have two problems - firstly Tia genuinely just does not really understand the exercise yet (does not understand that stay means "stay exactly in that position until you are released"), and secondly she has no faith of being rewarded unless the reward is apparent before she performs.

IMO, to help her understand the exercise you should make the release very clear to her - follow the release command with you throwing up your arms, jumping around, acting excited, producing the reward. On the other hand if she starts to break before you release her, calmly give a NRM, put her back in position, and ask her again for a stay. Make those two different consequences as clear cut to her as you can.

Remember to set her up for success - she should be achieving the release/reward at least 80% of the time. If she is breaking more often than that, consider asking for a shorter stay so she can be successful.

For the second issue, when you say "using food", I'm wondering if you mean that you're bribing her with the food (showing it to her beforehand?) If so, you need to switch to rewarding instead of bribing. In other words, you need to make her understand that the "stay" command will always be rewarded, even if she doesn't see the reward beforehand. To do that I'd personally drop back to really short stays but only produce the food (or the tug) after she's done the stay successfully and you've released her with your release command. Again, aim for her achieving 80% success - if she's not getting that, then lower your criteria. Doesn't matter if you have to do 2 second stays for a fortnight before you can raise the criteria, just think of it as laying a really good foundation for long, solid stays later down the track.

Hope that helped some, and sorry if some of it was kind of obvious - I'm not sure how experienced you are.

[Nekhbet]

the rewards should not leave your hands. If she is sniffing you are letting her rewards be from other sources, so she thinks 'hey i'm not getn it here lets see if its somewhere else'

some with the drive reward. YOU have the drive reward. It is attached to you at all times and DOES NOT LEAVE YOUR HANDS. She gets to play with it then you take it back. Same with the food. She shows the good behaviour, have a marker (like clicker or "good dog" to let her know she's on the right track) then reward. Also she should have a release word for her actions.

I dont know if you use corrections at all so I wont go into that unless you do.

Start her on short stays, let her win every time. If she starts sniffing around or loses focus you can either correct her, or do something like 'UH UH" and withhold the reward, break the exercise and try again. Dont travel too fast and remember that the rewards can only come from your hands. Dont dangle them in her face either, make them seem like they appear from no where. 5 second stays are great. DO you use a stay command? Do you already have a free command?

ALso I would skip a meal (if using food) or keep her confined for the previous day (as in no walkies, major play times etc) so she is keener on her reward.

Edited February 6, 2007 by Nekhbet

[Arya]

Have a go at starting WAY back at the beginning and don't rush through the process. I find this is often the problem, especially if you have one fantastic dog like Moses and another isn't quite so good yet. Do the stay with yourself a metre in front of the dog. Be very clear with your release word/clicker and reward. Keep the reward with you. Personally I don't think it has to be visible as long as it comes from you. Even put a long line on her but just start at a metre. Then move back slowly, don't rush it. If the dog will do stays and understand the concept well and is not breaking at a metre, they should do it at ten, twenty metres (out of sights another matter though). If the dog is breaking after you are sure they understand the concept and you have the release word and reward just right, and you are sure they fully understand this, be it food or tug or ball, whatever, doesn't matter, whatever drives the dog, then this is a time where I would look at correction on a long line. But, you have to be sure they aren't confused, or worried at you moving away, or could make the problem worse. Just my thoughts, anyway. Hope they help! But I'd start back at the beginning with a clean slate and just start again with the whole exercise.

[Arya]

Oh, sorry, forgot to add. I would stand in front, not to side. Five seconds, cool, end it while you're ahead. Then next time six, so on so on. Good luck!!!!!!!

[MrsD]

To whoever asked, the pup is 16 or 17 weeks old.

My guess is that if you are trying to make her stay with her sitting at your side she is very confused because you have just taught her to stand whilst she sits at your side. She doesnt grasp the concept of stay yet because last week you were clicking & treating her for getting up asap whilst sitting next to you.

Make sure you are aware of all the possible implications of teaching a dog a trick or an exercise before you teach it IMO.

ETA - when you teach the dog the stay whilst you stand in front, to start off with I would be standing very close to her (so that her nose is almost touching your leg), not 1 metre away as Arya suggested. IMO, 1 metre away may as well be a mile for a dog that doesnt grasp the concept of stays yet.

Edited February 7, 2007 by MrsD

[Nekhbet]

17 weeks?! Jeez the whole process really needs to slow down ... where is the competition that such a young pup needs to be progressing so far so fast? You will be missing critical steps and reinforcement time. Your time needs to be 10% teaching and 90% REPEAT REPEAT REPEAT the ONE thing until the dog does it in its sleep.

and trust me it will take a lot longer then a couple of weeks.

[Lablover]

CTD,

I am confused now, do you mean staying by your side or away from you.

Tia is your youngster? I cannot remember how old she is.

Stays, to my way of thinking, without all the fancy behaviour catch words LOL, is a non drive exercise. Stay means stay.

As you know in retrieving trials, dogs are left behind trees/cover, as the handler continues to the starting pegs, the handler then fires a blank or blanks, and after a delay to show (dog) steadiness, the handler calls the dog to heel.

[ReXy]

To whoever asked, the pup is 16 or 17 weeks old.

My guess is that if you are trying to make her stay with her sitting at your side she is very confused because you have just taught her to stand whilst she sits at your side. She doesnt grasp the concept of stay yet because last week you were clicking & treating her for getting up asap whilst sitting next to you.

Make sure you are aware of all the possible implications of teaching a dog a trick or an exercise before you teach it IMO.

ETA - when you teach the dog the stay whilst you stand in front, to start off with I would be standing very close to her (so that her nose is almost touching your leg), not 1 metre away as Arya suggested. IMO, 1 metre away may as well be a mile for a dog that doesnt grasp the concept of stays yet.

what i was going to say... MrsD said it all..

shes a baby i wouldnt expect any more than that at our side especially, id have her in front of you, graduall incresing the time and space.. whats the rush shes a baby... shes done so much so far and is doing great

[Staff'n'Toller]

I knew how old the dog was. :rolleyes:

Mel.

[Arya]

Mrs D I teach a metre for the reason that it imho it implies separation for the dog but it is close enough to prevent a big failure of the exercise (so you can train for success) - but it does offer an opportunity for correction should the need arise. I made BIG mistake in not adding that I leave a lead on at this distance... near my foot. Then I progress to a long line and work backwards. I see your point but as you say a metre may as well be a kilometre to the dog LOL. I guess it's up to the individual but I figure when you walk away from the dog any distance at all, in the dogs mind handler, treats, ball etc. is leaving them. So a metre teaches them this is okay without the risk of the dog getting up and nicking off before you have a chance to show them this is not on. If the dog gets up I use a correction at this point.

Just my opinion and no two trainers do it the same I guess.

[Nekhbet]

I wouldnt correct a 17 week old pup. Your problems stem from too much too fast. Yes the pup picks it up but you have a baby thats attention span is very short and you dont give things time to be cemented before moving on. Its like putting a kid on a bike and 10 minutes later whipping off the training wheels. You set your dog up to fail and then get frustrated.

Have fun with the dog before it becomes work shy. If you continuously show you are no fun your dog will not be easy to train or control.

[MrsD]

Mrs D I teach a metre for the reason that it imho it implies separation for the dog but it is close enough to prevent a big failure of the exercise (so you can train for success) - but it does offer an opportunity for correction should the need arise. I made BIG mistake in not adding that I leave a lead on at this distance... near my foot. Then I progress to a long line and work backwards. I see your point but as you say a metre may as well be a kilometre to the dog LOL. I guess it's up to the individual but I figure when you walk away from the dog any distance at all, in the dogs mind handler, treats, ball etc. is leaving them. So a metre teaches them this is okay without the risk of the dog getting up and nicking off before you have a chance to show them this is not on. If the dog gets up I use a correction at this point.

Just my opinion and no two trainers do it the same I guess.

Arya, if it works for you that's great, just not what I would do ;) .

I find that when you are first asking the dog to stay, that the change in position ie from being beside the dog to being in front is enough of a distinction for the dog to know that it's doing something new. To me, it's not about separation, it's about teaching the dog to stay in one position & in one spot, whether that be with me 6 inches away or 50 yards away. ;)

[Arya]

Mrs D, it's really interesting to get different people's interpretations isn't it Then we can store the ideas away and when we come across different dogs we can try out the different ideas! I see it as separation, you see it as getting them to stay in one position in one spot. That's what's great about this site, isn't it! I do see your point about it. The person who asks a questions sure gets a lot of different ways to try to solve their problems anyway, which is good.

[MrsD]

Mrs D, it's really interesting to get different people's interpretations isn't it Then we can store the ideas away and when we come across different dogs we can try out the different ideas! I see it as separation, you see it as getting them to stay in one position in one spot. That's what's great about this site, isn't it! I do see your point about it. The person who asks a questions sure gets a lot of different ways to try to solve their problems anyway, which is good.

Completely agree, as you said different trainers train different ways & of course every dog is different & some methods dont work with some dogs, so the more ideas the merrier .

There's no right or wrong, just different .