Herding: Round Yards

[whatevah]

Last session she didn't do any chasing. The critisicm has mainly come from another list. Do people think that I could be damaging her do herding and I should wait a while longer?

Some people must think I am really dumb. People are saying I will injure her etc. But where I did herding last time, she only had to move about 3 metres till she got to the sheep, and we only had her on the sheep for one short session. Not as if I am sending her up to sheep 100m away. and practicing every day. I have seen dogs more rough than that just by playing together.

The lady said she had a lot of talent and was showing instinct very early. Especially with the chooks. She was also balancing the sheep, last session. Probably in future will video, but not put on youtube or not for the public.

One guy commented on my videos and wanted to know where I learnt to train dogs so well. Which was nice to hear. But there are always people out there to bring others down.

[Vickie]

Do people think that I could be damaging her do herding and I should wait a while longer?

I don't think there is any question that you could damage her, both mentally and/or physically. I think you need to be aware that there are risk associated & it is up to you to weigh them up. Sheep know the difference between a puppy & a dog and I know they can take advantage of that. There are lots of things that you can risk...joints, injury through aggressive sheep, intimidation etc. The big question I guess is what is the hurry? Is she going to be a better sheepdog b/c you started early? Believe me, I know how tempting it is. My pup got loose at 14 weeks and looked awesome on sheep. Now she's 8 months I have just done one basic exposure. She looks confident, but I know she is not physically mature & don't think she is mentally mature either. I have nothing to lose by waiting & potentially something to gain. Sure, people start pups early all the time & it seems to work out, and there are others who started early to watch their dog become injured both physically & mentally who will never really recover.

Some people must think I am really dumb. People are saying I will injure her etc. But where I did herding last time, she only had to move about 3 metres till she got to the sheep, and we only had her on the sheep for one short session. Not as if I am sending her up to sheep 100m away. and practicing every day. I have seen dogs more rough than that just by playing together.

I think it's different. I didn't leash walk my pup to the park until recently. To me, that is a kind of forced exercise. Instead I drove her & let her run loose when we got there. I think herding for pups is the same. I'm not sure they really have a choice, nor do I think they move as freely as they would in play.

JMO

Edited February 7, 2007 by Vickie

[stumped]

CTD l think your pup seemed to be enjoying itself and showed some good instinct. l take my first look at my pups @ 8 wks, there is no pressure on them as l ask nothing of them, l am just there as support and as an observer. There is no working associations in the pup at this age so all you see is instinct. lf there is nothing you just pick them up and leave, if they work you observe and remember what was their natural approach, takes a minute or 2 , max. Next time l look is 12 wks, this time we will see what the first go meant to the pup, does it burst with drive to go back to work, what are its priorities, movement or containment, make sure the stock are suitable for its size and athleticism, we take note... is it fumble footed and needs a few more wks, or is it keen fast and ready for a look again in a wk. This is the time when you can easily imprint what stock it can work, that you provide that work, every move it makes can be given a name and the basics are building a broad foundation, all in a few minutes. Stay with your stock, move to support the pup when needed , you finish long before enthusiasm drops or fatigue sets in and you are building a work ethic. As long as moderation and control of the situation are observed , l believe there are many positives to an early foundation.

[jesomil]

I think you have to be very careful starting a pup early. They can get injured and loose their confidence so easily with sheep.

They dont know when to stop and they would keep herding till they collapsed if allowed. Sheep can also get quite aggressive.

Our current pup is 4 1/2 months and she has been worked on sheep infrequently to show she has the traits we are after but for now we are just working on teaching the sit and come and letting her grow up a little.

It is very tempting to have her out working everyday because it is amazing to see young pups work stock, but we know she has the instinct in her, so we are letting her grow up a bit more. She will still be the same in a couple of months but just be that much bigger. We have grand plans for her so we are trying to do everything we can to avoid any negative experiences.

My adult dog was started as a baby puppy (7wks) on ducks. He was worked for 1-2 mins a few times a week. He didnt get overdone and he couldnt get injured. He started on sheep as a pup but it was with dogged sheep and i kept an eye on the sheep at all times to protect him if necessary. We always had the 2 minute rule when working him. He has turned out better than i could have imagined but maybe we were lucky that he never got bashed by a sheep and never got too tired or over pressured.

I guess like everything it depends on the situation. We worked with a fantastic trainer who has started hundreds of pups and so the training was always in control.

I think most people that i have spoken to believe it is best to wait for the pup to grow a little. I think starting around 5 -6 months is good although some people wait much, much longer. Depends on facilities, handlers experience, dog, stock etc etc etc.

(my experience is fairly limited, so this is my opinion only from my experience so far)

Edited February 7, 2007 by jesomil

[Kelpie-i]

CTD, it all depends on the type of sheep used to start the pup. Normally, a pup is placed with lambs and/or "dogged" sheep which is normally quite safe. Also, you should be working in a small yard and for very short periods of time.

IMO, a working dog is never too young to start herding but of course common sense should prevail in that you should limit the time your pup is in with sheep and make sure the sheep are suitable....ie. stomping sheep are not suitable for a young starting pup.

Ducks are very good for starting pups as well.

A scare can certainly "switch off" a timid type pup, but if you're pup has a 'harder" type personality, I wouldn't be too worried.

My pup was put on lambs when he was just 6 weeks old by the breeder -no problems there!!

Edited February 8, 2007 by Kelpie-i

[WorkNBCs]

Well you guys talking about round yards and videos and so on spurred me into looking at what I had and getting my camera out - and there are three videos of Tex - my now four year old border collie who I have been training seriously for around the last 18 months (as compared with dabbling in it for his first year with me).

from a year ago shows him working in the round yard - in retrospect I should have had him out of there way before then and the close working has come back to haunt me until recently.

I have been working really hard on his cast recently and the one here is getting close to what I am looking for - I still need a bit more distance at the top though

We were given this nifty exercise to help with off balance work and also to try and get us to concentrate on the sheep rather than the dog. The idea is to walk one side of the line of markers set around 7m apart and weave the sheep between them. My sheep are such knee huggers that this is really hard work - roll on my new ewe lambs being ready to work in a couple of months.

The other exercise I like for off balance is walking the sheep round the outside of a square while I stay in the middle eventually the aim is to move the markers out so the square is around 40m - currently set at around 15m as compared with 10 when I started trying it.

Any other fun exercises anyone has would be gratefully received.

Cheers

[whatevah]

Another question I was watching a border collie herding sheep, and there was a pet sheep in the flock. She didn't herd this sheep but ignored it, as this sheep didn't really join the flock. Has anyone come across this one before?

I enjoyed watching your videos. I have borrowed a couple of herding videos from the VCA library.

Edited February 8, 2007 by CrashTestDummy

[jesomil]

Hi WorkNBCs, thanks for sharing those videos. Your dog looks great !! Bring on the new ewe lambs though :D

Its great seeing how other breeds work.

I really like the weaving exercise, it really makes the dog concentrate and be precise with its commands.

Any more vids anyone?

[superminty]

No round yard footage I'm afraid but here's Cash just recently - one of the first times out in a paddock with this many sheep. He's 10.5 months.

jesomil: just booked into the training day on the 10th of March. I promise I will be brave and say hi!

[jesomil]

Hey Superminty, Cash looks like he knows what he is doing.

Thats great you have booked into the training day, it should be good. You must say hi as i have no idea who you are.

[WorkNBCs]

Hi Superminty Cash looks like a lovely strong dog and nicely under control - especially as he is so young. Interesting he has a very different style cast from my guy - and what a walk up - wish I could get my dog to do that as confidently.

Vickie I went back and realised you had a video of Trim balancing - how old is Trim? Trim and Tidy is about it - got any more for us?

Cheers

[superminty]

You must say hi as i have no idea who you are.

I was at Welshpool, saw your guy in Encouragement and City Slickers - I was with Dave (of Scout fame) but was too shy to say the words "Are you from DOL?" :D .

Interesting he has a very different style cast from my guy

We haven't done much on his cast yet but he does tend to go in quite straight and then arc around - the sheep he is working are well-dogged and so he gets away with it but I don't think he will have much success with that method with flightier sheep. I'm more interested in getting a cast like your boy - more pear shaped - looks lovely and doesn't hurry the sheep. How does he keep control of just two?

I find my boy is much more relaxed and switched on out in the paddock as he has more to do - the round yard bored him and he resorted to creating his own fun - not good! So got him out of there quick smart. However we will be back in there to sharpen up commands (when I get around to putting any on him, that is) and I wouldn't have liked to put him out in a paddock before his stop was reliable - chasing a kelpie around a paddock is not my idea of fun!

[Vickie]

We were given this nifty exercise to help with off balance work and also to try and get us to concentrate on the sheep rather than the dog. The idea is to walk one side of the line of markers set around 7m apart and weave the sheep between them. My sheep are such knee huggers that this is really hard work - roll on my new ewe lambs being ready to work in a couple of months.

I really like this exercise and Tex is doing a great job.

Thanks for putting the videos up, it's great to see how other dogs work & the exercises you are doing. Keep them coming!

[Vickie]

No round yard footage I'm afraid but here's Cash just recently - one of the first times out in a paddock with this many sheep. He's 10.5 months.

Great video, Cash is doing well for a young pup, he's very obedient. I love watching the strong instinct in pups like this...it puts a lump in your throat.

[Vickie]

Vickie I went back and realised you had a video of Trim balancing - how old is Trim?

She was around 18 months in the video & hadn't done much at that point. She's now 3 & we're just getting back into more regularly.

Trim and Tidy is about it

Tidy? you mean Tia?

- got any more for us?

I'll get some more this week & put it up. Edited February 8, 2007 by Vickie

[WorkNBCs]

Nope lol I was trying to be clever with a pun on her name - I meant her work is really tidy as in not all over the place

Cheers

[Vickie]

Nope lol I was trying to be clever with a pun on her name - I meant her work is really tidy as in not all over the place

I actually know a dog called Tidy, so immediately thought you were talking about a dog :D

Thanks! hopefully I can get something a little longer to put up than 9 secs this week.

[whatevah]

There are more herding videos under "Videos to Share" there is a thread there. It is a sub forum of Photos. I also booked in for the seminar. You will have to come and say hello to me as I will be probably the only with a choc and white border so should be easy to pick. LOL. All your kelpies look alike. LOL :D)))

Anyone got an answer for why the border collie didn't herd the pet sheep in the flock?

[stumped]

Superminty, just going by the video, it is a reinforcement of the straight approach he has to have him advance with you before sending him. He wants to work and you block him with the pipe and start to work towards the sheep, so his desire to start work is rewarded by a straight advance, which will programme in a straight advance. Then as you get closer you actually send him from in front of you, so he is fully focused on getting to the stock without you in the picture, better to stop him advance a little yourself, so that his primary focus when starting his cast is you, and he actually starts his cast by having to head either right or left and knows he is going to get the sheep, for you. Just observations from that footage, nice dog. regards Tony

[superminty]

Superminty, just going by the video, it is a reinforcement of the straight approach he has to have him advance with you before sending him. He wants to work and you block him with the pipe and start to work towards the sheep, so his desire to start work is rewarded by a straight advance, which will programme in a straight advance. Then as you get closer you actually send him from in front of you, so he is fully focused on getting to the stock without you in the picture, better to stop him advance a little yourself, so that his primary focus when starting his cast is you, and he actually starts his cast by having to head either right or left and knows he is going to get the sheep, for you. Just observations from that footage, nice dog. regards Tony

tmc: Cool, thanks for that advice. I am a complete novice so need all the help I can get

So I should leave him in a drop and walk a bit in front of him then release him? Straight in front or to one side? I'll try it out this arvo and get some footage so we can see how I went ;)

He is a natural header so I try to set him up so that he will go to the head - I can usually tell which way he is going to go by watching where he is focusing - so let's say he is going to cast to the right, should I be standing out in front and to the left of him before I release him? Or just be in front and let him choose the direction? Argh, so many questions!