jesomil Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Well said WorkNBCs I agree with everything you say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally2020 Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 Hi, Sorry have been away at the Ballarat Three Sheep Trial for the week just got back. I have found the round yard very useful as you can correct anything that goes wrong. You do need to have quiet dog broken sheep that are not going to run around the outside of the yard silly, and als the handler has to know what to do and where to block ect. It is used to start the dog balancing and then you progress onto stops and directions. I use this way with all my dogs and I have one Kelpie that I know use for Three Sheep, Yard and Utility trials, as well as mustering in 300 acre hill paddocks as well as penning up in Shearing sheds and general farm work, so I don't think you can say that round yards create dogs that are mechanical and not suited to general work. From my experience, putting a young pup/dog out into a 2 or 3 acre paddock is usually not the best idea, because they are able to get away with too much the sheep are able to run too much, which means that the pup is not able to head properly and they end up learning to tail or chase sheep, which if you want to general work with you dog, is not what you want, also you are not able to correct any biting that may occur. I have a 3 month old pup which is just starting in the round yard and after about the first go he is now able to balace the sheep to me and bring them after me. I use a rake when first starting a pup, beacuse you are able to block them lot easier, and you can push them out with it, or correct them for biting. This is just what I have found Wiz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally2020 Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 Hi Jesomil, Were u at the Warragul trial last year, I went there for the day, nice little trial, I think i ended up fourth in the Novice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjk05 Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 From my experience, putting a young pup/dog out into a 2 or 3 acre paddock is usually not the best idea, because they are able to get away with too much the sheep are able to run too much, which means that the pup is not able to head properly and they end up learning to tail or chase sheep, which if you want to general work with you dog, is not what you want, also you are not able to correct any biting that may occur. It's just like using round yards, though, wally- you need to have the right conditions, and the right sheep. If you have quiet training sheep (same as the sort you'd use in a yard, I guess), they don't tend to run, and an older dog can provide extra cover. Plus if you use the fence, you can get between the dog and sheep and block them up to start teaching control etc just as effectively as in a round yard (in fact I find it easier). Its probably because of not having the right conditions again, but I've seen a few round yard set-ups where the dogs just could never head and balance properly because the sheep just kept turning round and inwards to the handler, so the dog ended up doing laps. Also people often use round yards that are way too small for many dogs. I guess it all depends on your own preferences and the situation, but I don't think a round yard is as essential as people often think. We've been pretty happy starting dogs recently in a fairly big paddock (from 7wk old pups up to adult beginners) and I don't think we'll go back to the round yard any time soon (could be wrong though ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidoney Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 (edited) Last year I took Xia down to her breeder's and she had not learned to head sheep - this is likely because the sheep had been very dogged (?) although we had been to one Bernard Arends clinic - anyway Xia learned to head sheep with an older dog keeping them under control where needed, this was good for her, by the time I left she was able to keep the sheep to me and stop them getting into the trees, this was a 5 acre paddock and sheep that were not very dogged, they were quite willing to make a run for it up to their favourite corner that had the trees. She'd only been in a round yard once, after that she'd been in smallish rectangular yards, but bigger than a round yard. So any problems she had, you could not say were due to a round yard. Edited February 4, 2007 by sidoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjk05 Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 Heading is really an instinctive thing, its not so much something they learn (so I've been told, anyway). Some dogs are really really strong on the head, and others aren't. Its hard to comment on a dog that has only just been exposed to sheep, because their instincts are still coming out. But I have seen dogs that were on the head to start with become short-heading (just swinging around on the shoulder) with lots and lots of round yard work. That's probably a function of bad training, and the dog, but its a risk in inexperienced hands, I think. I do know some people starting their first dogs who are still doing most of their training in round yards 6 months down the track. I don't know why. For beginners, I actually think paddocks are easier for the handler, because they aren't getting crowded by the sheep, and find it easier to move in straight lines and not obsess about their dog. You feel more out of control the first time in a paddock, but with good sheep and a trained dog as back-up, its actually just as controlled. I have some pics of a 12mo dog we had visiting a couple of weeks ago, having her first time on sheep, balancing up in a paddock and doing walkabouts and starting to learn a stop- but can't find them right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesomil Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 We just started our new pup last weekend. Instead of the round yard, we started her in a large yard/small paddock. Interestingly enough, it worked really well with her. We had suitable sheep and as she is a more paddocky type, she went very well. My adult dog was a lot of work keeping him off stock,so i found in a big round yard, i could keep control of what was happening, but this new pup is naturally more wide so the paddock has worked well. Do you think the suitability of a round yard has something to do with what they are bred for? A more paddocky dog might feel too cooped in in a yard and needs the paddock or a yard dog needs the confinement to start with to control the natural in your face tendancies? Just having a guess here. I definately think that starting in both the round yard or paddock can be bad if used innapropriately. Hi Wally, I wasnt at the Warragul trial last year but am entering this year. Are you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WorkNBCs Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 Do you think the suitability of a round yard has something to do with what they are bred for? A more paddocky dog might feel too cooped in in a yard and needs the paddock or a yard dog needs the confinement to start with to control the natural in your face tendancies? Just having a guess here. I definately think that starting in both the round yard or paddock can be bad if used innapropriately. Couldnt agree more about using a round yard or paddock inappropriately for training being harmful - similarly if any part of training is overdone it can cause problems too - I learned this one the hard way. I am not convinced that in starting you need to distinguish between a paddocky and yardy dog - there are lots of people with both types who have started either way successfully. At the end of the day you need to do what works for you and for your dog - my preference is for a round yard because I dont have the energy and legs to stop a pup chasing if it all goes pear shaped and most of our paddocks have lots of trees making it tough for an inexperienced dog. However, in retrospect I probably over used it with my first dog, mainly because of lack of confidence, and will try not to make that mistake next time round. I think at the end of the day the issue is about having control so that when you are teaching a dog something new it all happens as it is supposed to so the dog learns the right way rather than the wrong way of doing things. How you achieve that control is really up to you but for me personally I have found the round yard is the best way of doing things although i may open to try something else further down the track Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjk05 Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 (edited) Hey, you're quite welcome to come have a play at our place some time, maybe with your next pup We have loads of rocks and trees in half the training paddock (the hilly part), and the other half is nice and flat, so we can use it for a variety of dogs. And I've not had to do any running so far with the youngsters- its the older dogs that tend to get in trouble half way down the field Edited February 5, 2007 by mjk05 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted February 5, 2007 Author Share Posted February 5, 2007 We just started our new pup last weekend. Instead of the round yard, we started her in a large yard/small paddock. Interestingly enough, it worked really well with her. We had suitable sheep and as she is a more paddocky type, she went very well. My pup just started last weekend as well . It'll be interesting to swap observations & experiences. So far, so good for us. She is looking great, plenty of confidence and nice and calm. I'm very excited about her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally2020 Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 Hi You are right, it does depend on the experience of the handler wether you start in the round yard or out in the paddock. I found that by working a pup out in a padoock with an older dog, could cause problems with your older dog, such as if you've got a very pushy pup, you could bring out any turn tail your older dog may have. My Older dog Wiz gets very exited and hyped when working with a younger dog. It probably depends on the older dog. I try and progress out into the paddock, wether or not I have a Yardy dog or a paddock dog, to try and get a bit more distance. But it is not until I have my Pup/dog balancing properly and bringing the sheep to me. It is still important to have distance and everything that you want outside, because if all you do with your pup is let it push, you will find it very hard to get it to work calmly to get the sheep in to the smaller yards. I also know a very successful three sheep trialer who teaches all his dogs to back and push sheep through the yards, as it makes the dog accept sheep better. It works for him. I agree that you have to do what works for you, but you should also be open to try different things.... mjk05 it sounds like you have tried it and it didn't work for you. I would also reccomend trying to get to a Greg Prince school before ruling out the round yard, he has had alot of success with round yards and is able to teach really well. Jesomil I will hopefully be going to Warragul again this year as it was so enjoyable last year. I had ago at the duck trial as well last year, but my dog would not work ducks!!! Everytime I gave a command he would stand up on his hind legs and look out over the fence towards the sheep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesomil Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 I would also reccomend trying to get to a Greg Prince school before ruling out the round yard, he has had alot of success with round yards and is able to teach really well. I was just about to say that the best sheep dog trainer i have ever seen uses round yards very well but and then i find he has been mentioned. I went to a Greg Prince workshop and it was fantastic. He uses the round yard brilliantly. Wally, i have seen a few dogs look for the sheep when trying to work ducks. We have ducks at home so we will definately be entering the duck trial as well. Hi Vickie, its exciting starting a new pup isnt it!! We are now trying to make a few less mistakes than what we did with the first pup. How old is your pup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted February 5, 2007 Author Share Posted February 5, 2007 its exciting starting a new pup isnt it!! We are now trying to make a few less mistakes than what we did with the first pup. How old is your pup? She is 8 months. I am not planning on doing too much with her for a the next few months, just bits & pieces. I'd like her to mature a bit yet, both physically & mentally. I know what you mean about making less mistakes, that's exactly how I feel. Every night I say to myself, "she will be better b/c I am better". That's the plan anyway. I still have so much to achieve with Trim, so plenty of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjk05 Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 (edited) I also know a very successful three sheep trialer who teaches all his dogs to back and push sheep through the yards, as it makes the dog accept sheep better. It works for him.I agree that you have to do what works for you, but you should also be open to try different things.... mjk05 it sounds like you have tried it and it didn't work for you. Oh, it worked well for some of my dogs, but I've seen some I think it was probably detrimental for. And yeah, all our dogs have to learn to back and work in yards, whether they 3-sheep on the occasional weekend or not, because they're working farm dogs first and foremost, not just trial dogs. Farm work of various sorts (from just moving mobs to yard work) is invaluable for young dogs, I reckon. ETA: I found that by working a pup out in a padoock with an older dog, could cause problems with your older dog, such as if you've got a very pushy pup, you could bring out any turn tail your older dog may have. My Older dog Wiz gets very exited and hyped when working with a younger dog. It probably depends on the older dog. I'm not really talking about working the two dogs together, although sometimes that's good to get a pup interested. We've just been having an older dog sitting somewhere nearby, either on the back of the ute or by the gate, or maybe on the fence in the direction the sheep are most likely to break. They aren't working, just there for back up, and if something does happen and the sheep look like taking off, we can just give them the word and they'll put them back where we need them, and then go and sit back down. Edited February 5, 2007 by mjk05 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WorkNBCs Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 Jesomil 5Feb 2007 - 10:12 PMI would also reccomend trying to get to a Greg Prince school before ruling out the round yard, he has had alot of success with round yards and is able to teach really well. I would love to get to a Greg Prince school but it is a heck of a way from WA unless we get him back here again. The trainer I go to over here is a big fan of using round yards to start a dog and his method has turned out some pretty useful dogs round the place. Next time round I will definitely get out into the paddock once the dog is switched on and able to balance and then just do short sessions in the round yard for stop and sides. One of the things i like about the approach I have been taught is that everything is under control and set up for success - so I am in control when first teaching it. With two dogs currently working - one towards the end of her trialling life and the other aged four and at the start, I have decided not to do anything about a pup for a year. Hopefully by the time I do put my bitch in pup I will have learned enough to be able to start the pup I keep with a lot fewer mistakes than I have made this time round. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatevah Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 Tia had her second go at herding sheep today. We went to a different place, where she was in a paddock with about 15 sheep. She went really well, the lady said she had heaps of potential and was a little ripper. She was doing some things that she said dog have to be taught. There was no rake this time, and we worked on getting her to sit etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted February 6, 2007 Author Share Posted February 6, 2007 Tia had her second go at herding sheep today. We went to a different place, where she was in a paddock with about 15 sheep. She went really well, the lady said she had heaps of potential and was a little ripper. She was doing some things that she said dog have to be taught. There was no rake this time, and we worked on getting her to sit etc. That's great news...sounds like you had better get ready to become addicted . So, did you notice a difference with what she did in the paddock? Did the lady explain why she put her in a paddock rather than a yard? What things was she doing that had to be taught? How did you stop/catch her? Sorry for so many questions...I am just curious about people's different ideas...I guess that's why I started the thread :D . Oh, one more question...did you get video? Will we see it? (OK that's 2 questions) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatevah Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 No didn't video it this time. As I got a fair amount of criticsm from people watching it last time. She didn't start her in a round yard as she said some dogs get nervous. To catch Tia was very easy, just told her to sit. This time she wasn't running lots of round circles. She would mainly run once around the sheep and we would move back a bit. Once she came and sat, the lady was talking to me and Tia just dropped but still watching the sheep. These were different sheep some were stamping their feet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted February 7, 2007 Author Share Posted February 7, 2007 No didn't video it this time. As I got a fair amount of criticsm from people watching it last time. I'm sorry you feel that way CTD. I hope you keep videoing for your own benefit. I have a number of Trim's first sessions on sheep & I thoroughly enjoy watching and learning from them. It is great to watch her (and my) progression. FWIW, I think it's important to make a distinction between criticism & opinion. I think everyone is entitled to an opinion, regardless of their experience level, so long as they are realistic about how qualified they are to give it and are prepared for that opinion to change as they learn. The truth is I started this thread b/c there were things I saw in your clip that raised red flags for me. That is not a criticism of you or your dog...it is really me trying to justify my own opinions from what I have experienced & learned so far. I think it is important to keep questioning everything. As you are about to find out, everyone has a different method of starting a pup & they will all be able to justify why their way is the best. To date, my only advice to you has been to go watch lots of dogs work & have a go with as many trained dogs as you can, before you do too much with Tia. I don't need to be an expert or have a lot of experience to give you this advice and I hope you consider it at some point. Good Luck & sorry if I am one of the people who has upset you. Vickie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WorkNBCs Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 No didn't video it this time. As I got a fair amount of criticsm from people watching it last time. I too am sorry if you saw my comments about the way round was being used as criticism - it certainly was not intended that way. Your little pup showed heaps of instinct - but my concern - and that of others that you may have seen as detractors - was that she may get into bad habits such as chasing, the way the handler was using the round yard. I would certainly be interested to see how she went in the open paddock as potentially she shows a lot of drive and talent providing she is given the right start on what is, after all, a pretty difficult sport. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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