Herding: Round Yards

[Vickie]

I'm interested to hear people's thoughts on round yards, as opposed to larger yards & paddocks.

Which type of dogs they are useful for

At what stage

Problems you can fix in a round yard

Things you can & things you cannot achieve in a round yard

What type of dog should not be in a round yard

Problems you can create in a round yard etc.

thanks

Edited January 28, 2007 by Vickie

[Mooper]

I'll throw my inexperienced hat in the ring, vickie

Jack has almost exclusively been working in small yards, often round yards. As a result, I believe, when we were out at Bungendore with Jim Luce a little while ago, in a far larger yard, Jack was all over the shop running a marathon. Now, it is almost certainly because he and I are inexperienced that he was hooning around. But I can't help thinking that he's become used to only working in a tight space. He has no clue about casting (but we are still very much beginners).

Working with Charlie Cover at Yass another time, I could see a benefit to the round yard when you have a stubborn dog like Jack. Charlie will "take a dog's ground" where necessary, to remind it who is boss. It's not a physically forceful thing, but is as simple as following the dog with a rake, bag, polypipe or whatever until it looks up at the handler and concedes that you are boss. So when Jack would switch off after being told off for getting too close to the sheep, Charlie told me to take Jack's ground. I would walk over to Jack, almost blocking him from wherever he thought was a good spot to sniff ... for him, that seemed to work really well. For a more nervous dog, I wouldn't like to use that sort of pressure.

Those are my random Sunday arvo thoughts.

I look forward to hearing from others ... ;)

[wally2020]

Hi

The round yard is very good for starting younger pups/dogs as there are no corners, and you are able to position yourself to prevent the dog from getting in the wrong place.

Of Course you do not stay in the round yard for ever, but it is a good place to get your stops and directions, and then by the time you are ready to graduate out into a little paddock you should be pretty confidant that you have got enough control over your dog to be able to prevent it from doing silly things like crossing and splitting sheep.

Wiz

[Vickie]

Thank you both. It is interesting to hear different opinions and experiences, especially since I will be starting a pup soon. I know there are people who do most of their initial training in a round yard & others who only use one if they really need to.

We did start in a yard, but it wasn't round & was about double/triple the size of the roundyards I have seen. I did do a little in a small roundyard later, but it was more for teaching specific things rather than starting.

To me it looks like it would be difficult to get a dog balancing in a small roundyard?

So Wiz, are you saying you have sides on your dog on command before you move out of the roundyard?

Edited January 28, 2007 by Vickie

[wally2020]

Hi Vickie,

Yes definately, I use Greg Princes method when training, and once you get them balancing you start putting your stop and directions on them.

It has worked for me quite sucessfully. Using this method I have actually be able to Three Sheep a Kelpie that is mainly a yard dog.

It did take a long time and there were a lot of stops used to start with, but he is now not bad at it, not right up there with the Collies, but not too bad.

Wiz

[whatevah]

At Warragul they had Tia working in a round yard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Bqf3MfSUTk

[jesomil]

I cannot imagine training a young dog without a round yard. If you let a young dog go in a paddock with sheep, you have no control. The dog will most likely split the sheep, the sheep will run and you have to catch the dog.

In a round yard, you have control of the situation. You are close enough to stop any unwanted behaviour and protect the dog if necessary.

I only let the dog out of the round yard once he has mastered the basics and you have control of him.

Hey crash test dummy, when were you at Warragul? Thats were i go but havent been for a month as i have been away.

[whatevah]

I had my first lesson last Sunday. I am now thinking whether to do herding on Sunday, register at Croydon for obedience classes (already doing some somewhere else) or do the Pet Expo. Steve was really nice.

[sidoney]

As you would remember Vickie, Xia was intimidated in a round yard and needed to go into a larger yard. But Xia is about the extent of my experience.

[mjk05]

We start all our pups in the paddock now.

I originally started in a round yard, my first dogs were started that way, and it worked well for some dogs. But I think many people spend way too long in there, and it can create problems.

IMO, round yards are most useful for situations where you are trying to train a young dog without either training sheep, or an experienced dog to help. Also for working on high pressure close-work situations, ie yard work.

But you can do all your basic training at whatever age without a round yard- my OH used to train all his dogs just with farmwork, and we've gone back towards that. When we start pups, or even when people visit with older inexperienced dogs (including show and non-working bred dogs), we start in a small paddock (few acres), and use a specific training mob. These sheep are used to dogs, not too easily stressed, and they won't challenge dogs. They will come close enough to people, but if left alone will drift slowly back down the paddock.

We use one of our older dogs to collect the sheep at the start of a training session, and for a baby pup, let the pup work alongside the older dog to get some interest going. For older beginner dogs or older pups, we might dog the sheep down a bit with a trained dog if necessary, and then the older dog stops somewhere while the beginner has a go. If things go pear-shaped, the experienced dog can catch the sheep before they get away. To work on tight situations or to block a dog, you can just move over to the fence and put the sheep against it. To catch a puppy, we either block them up with the sheep in a corner, or use a long line.

Later on we try to use some lighter less-well behaved sheep, and if necessary the experienced dog can cover at a distance. Our training paddock has some great natural obstacles, like 2 rocky outcrops/treed hills, which are useful for training- eg if the sheep are up in the rocks and a dog learning to cast goes too tight and heads into the rocks, the sheep will scatter and they have no hope of catching them among the boulders. So they learn pretty quickly to head out wide and keep watching their sheep.

So far it seems to be working as well for my new pups as the round yard ever did, and better for some.

Plus we let the pups do some farm work early on in training, it helps to teach them to think and settles them more than working a few. My recent pup had one of her first experiences on sheep helping her father move a small mob (about 200) across the farm, learning about balancing and how sheep move in a mob, starting to learn a stop at gateways etc, and it's good for dogs with maybe a bit too much eye. If a dog needs more confidence, my OH will often put them at the back of a forcing pen alongside another dog while he's working in the yards, and let them just hold and push.

We do have a round yard, but at the moment its around the back lawn as a fence for the new puppies to play inside

ETA: to properly answer your original Qs (from my limited experience)-

Which type of dogs they are useful for

I guess any sorts of dogs at some stage- initially best for dogs that are fairly keen and comfortable with pressure, not so good for softer or less confident dogs. Good for starting pups etc if you don't have the option of starting in a paddock. Later on, might be useful to work on getting dogs coming in close and working in tight situations. Fairly easy to get a dog off its sheep and doing 360 degree flanks and off-balance stops. Might be good for dogs with a bit too much eye, who stick.

At what stage

Again, depends on why you are using them- see above. We used to use a round yard attached to a race to brush up dogs before a yard trial, but I'm not sure there's any benefit over a real set of yards- maybe its easier to get in position to correct a dog that's not taking commands.

Problems you can fix in a round yard

Maybe working on flanks and distance etc in a way you might not be able to do in a paddock or on a fence (360 degree flanks etc).

Things you can & things you cannot achieve in a round yard

You can get interest, start dogs going around sheep and balancing, teach flanks and stop, start off balance work, teach a walk up and reverse and moving off sheep, work on distance off sheep as well as pushing in tight. You can't really work on a cast, although you can get the basics. Can't teach obstacles, can't teach dogs to get sheep out of corners (unless you put more bits and pieces in).

What type of dog should not be in a round yard

I don't think its helpful for some soft dogs or dogs that can't handle the pressure (blow up or shut down). I've also seen dogs that lack cover do better in paddocks- the round yard seems to absolve them of some of the responsibility of keeping their sheep together, same for dogs that push too hard. But in the right hands I think they can be trained well in a round yard.

Problems you can create in a round yard etc.

As above- some dogs just can't handle the pressure, and do stupid things in that situation or get intimidated. Others learn bad habits (I guess that's trainer-dependent). Personally I drilled too much obedience in the round yard, without balancing that with outside work to get the dog learning about how to move sheep. Once we got out in the paddock, especially on light sheep, the dog was shocked to find that he caused problems by being too close, and hadn't learned how to cover. Those problems are much worse for dogs without as much natural ability, but I think its possible to overdo it with most dogs. I've seen dogs fall off the head with too much round pen work. Going round and round in circles can be frustrating and demoralising for dogs.

But all the above is really variable depending on the size of the round yard and the sort of sheep used- the worst situation seems to be using really dogged sheep in a small round yard (or really aggressive sheep). Knee knockers almost defeat the purpose of the round yard, because you can't get away from them to block the dog, and the dog has no work to do. And I don't think many problems arise if the dog has good natural ability, and experienced handler, and is not kept in the round yard long, or alternates round yard work with more natural work in the paddock, with a range of sheep.

The one big benefit of the round yard we've found is that beginner handlers seem to be more happy to have a go in the round yard, because they don't feel so out of control. But with an experienced dog backing them up, and the right sort of sheep, they seem to cope just fine starting all sorts of dogs in the paddock instead.

Edited January 31, 2007 by mjk05

[Vickie]

Thanks MJK,

you have raised many of the points I was thinking about and I think you're right, it depends on the size of the yard, the natural ability of the dog, the type of sheep & the experience of the handler. I have seen many dogs that you would be insane to let loose in a paddock with sheep & others who were completely in control in their very first experience on sheep in a paddock.

I find that the handlers I aspire to & the dogs I admire most are those who have not done a lot of mechanical training and tend to be those who went into the paddock fairly early and let the dog really learn to read the sheep (as you have described). Since that is what I like/want, I guess that is what we'll be doing.

Edited January 31, 2007 by Vickie

[stumped]

Vickie, the thing l dont like about round yards is evidenced very well in your video 1. The pup is circling in one direction so that it appears to be learning a direction, but in actual fact it does nothing but follow sheep the whole time.

then when changed direction in vid 2 it just follows the other way, but from a dogs point of view it is the same thing, being encouraged to follow sheep, which then when let outside would show up as failing to head its sheep. The second thing l dont like is the rake, it teaches avoidance not balance, takes the pups attention off the stock, again in your video you will see there were several chances to change the stock movement by body placement and hence adjust the pup as a reaction to stock movement but as the handler is concentrating on using the rake to change direction, he misses the opportunities, l like natural myself, use a smaller yard but not round , easier to see if the dog is actually getting to balance or not,

regards Tony

[jesomil]

Good points raised.

My experience is only with yard bred dogs so maybe that is why the round yard works best for them as far as i can tell. Maybe the more paddocky dogs with the right kind of sheep are a little more suited to starting in a paddock.

The yard i have started in is fairly big and the pup moves out of it fairly quickly only to return for brush ups.

With all the dogs that turn up to training, i cannot imagine working them without a yard, it would be chaos. But then again, different situation, dogs and experience levels.

[jesomil]

Tmc, I agree with what you say about the videos but could that be due to an inexperienced handler? And could the yard have been utilised better if handled differently?

The puppy is simply chasing the sheep around in circles which is not teaching it anything.

[whatevah]

TMC are you sure its not my video you are referring to? LOL ) That was Tia's first time at seeing sheep, they just wanted to build up her confidence without any pressure. She had never seen a sheep before until last Sunday. I didn't video the whole lot. At one stage a sheep decided to move away and she put it back. But me and Tia are both extreme novices and both have a lot to learn. I can only go buy what the guy with the rake is doing and telling me.

[Vickie]

Thanks for your thoughts TMC, although as CTD says, that is not my dog . This is my dog:

So you are saying that starting in a roundyard is OK, so long as it is done correctly and not for too long?

Can you elaborate a bit more on your comments re the rake? I have never had much luck with a rake as my dog doesn't seem to "give" to it easily. What would you use a rake for?

Edited January 31, 2007 by Vickie

[whatevah]

They look completely different. LOL Is Trim the dog in your singature? Tia isn't even from herding lines.

[stumped]

sorry for the confusion re whose dog, l clicked on link as l was reading Vickies post. However does not alter what was happening . Nothing wrong with the little dog , but it is important early in work to send the right messages.

A round yard is ok if you use it properly and for very young dogs, l prefer to quickly get out to where there is more room to work and where there is a consequence to poor placement. A dog quicly learns in a round yard, that if you bump them , voila they run and end up right back with you.

l prefer to change what the stock are doing and for a dog to see that as a reason to change his position, rather than learn that you run until a rake blocks you and do an about turn, when you get old and slow like me, perhaps the rake might help manipulate the stock.

[WorkNBCs]

A round yard is ok if you use it properly and for very young dogs, l prefer to quickly get out to where there is more room to work and where there is a consequence to poor placement.

Using the round yard correctly is the crux of it. In that video the handler was letting the pup chase rather than head the stock because he was moving in circles - making the stock move in wider circles and the poor pup in the widest circles of all. The yard is round to stop the sheep getting stuck in corners. However, as handlers we need to move in straight lines across it to give the dog somewhere to take the sheep. The rake should be used to block the pup, primarily from going between sheep and handler but also to get a change of direction. Early on it is important to make sure that the sheep themselves are partially blocked by the handler to give the beginner dog a chance to get there and turn them.

Sounds a bit woolly? Probably because it is hard to explain - really you need to see someone who uses a round yard well to start a dog, actually doing it.

I dont think even the biggest fan of round yards advocates staying there long - in fact all the ones I have heard want to get their dogs out of there at least some of the time pretty quickly - but not until the dog has switched on and grown physically and mentally enough to balance to them. A good way to test this is to then let the dog take the sheep for a walk in a paddock or other open area and make sure the dog does keep the sheep to the handler. Then back to the round yard for teaching stop and sides and back out again to test them - initially in a small area and then increase it once they are 100%.

The basis for starting a dog in the round yard and then using it again periodically for teaching specific tasks is that if the dog is set up for success so it always does it right - it wont do it wrong.

I work my dogs in the open now but if I am getting problems with stops or sides I have no hesitation about going back into the round yard for a quick session to put it right.

Hope this is some help

Cheers

[WorkNBCs]

but not until the dog has switched on and grown physically and mentally enough to balance to them.

Sorry that should read "balance the sheep to them"