shadow Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 Does anyone have any suggestions regarding dog to dog aggression? We have 2 puppies a 19 week old doberman cross border collie and a 17 week lab cross border collie. They are both desexed females. They are roughly the same size and where brought into the house together. They have attended puppy school and the problem is the aggression of the doberman to not only her housemate, but to most all dogs. It is not only the normal sort of "puppy play" where they work out who is boss, it is outright frank aggression and biting. The lab is terrified and very submissive - She won't touch any toys because the other dog immediately will begin to snarl and try to attack her. She spends a lot of time cowering. Puppy preschool is obviously not enough and we need some more assistance. We had been considering Dogtech, but after reading some of the posts - we have reconsidered. We were considering some home training where both dogs and their interactions can be observed - has anyone used a reputable company in Sydney that they can recommend? We were considering Hanrob as they were recommended by a friend - has anyone used them? In the meantime, whilst we sort out where to go for training, if anyone has any great ideas that would be great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 In the meantime, whilst we sort out where to go for training, if anyone has any great ideas that would be great. NILIF (search the forum) Tot (sticky at the top) Seperating the dogs when you're not there to supervise Behaviourist (consider K9force, he's near Sydney & I hear he's great). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 set up a sin bin. Every time the doby x carries on like that grab it by the scruff and put it away for a while with no toys or food, just some water. Yes respect the pack positions they have set up for themselves but dont let her get away with that sort of rubbish. She can come back and join the family when she settles down. NEVER yell at the dogs when she carries on like that because the other will be scared as well and learn to fear confrontational situations. Start her on obedience as well. I would crate train the pups, get a separate crate for each pup and DONT let the dobe into the other pups crate EVER. the lab needs some space too from all this, it may settle tensions if they have their own space and items. Teach the pups not to touch each others stuff, that runs both ways, and be really strict on them if they are going to carry on like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoL Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 I don't know if this would work for your Dobe but something has to be done. It sounds like it needs to be taken down a peg on the heirarchy. When it starts getting nasty, rouse on it (and mean it). If it carries on then put the Dobe on its back, your hand over its throat (imitating a dogs mouth) and growl like hell at it. Basically, you are acting like a dog and placing the Dobe in a submissive position. The only problem is that consistency is the key and make sure your Dobe does not get jealous of your Lab. The sin bin is also a good idea, as mentioned above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 I would NOT do what emmark suggests. It sounds like he is suggesting an alpha roll, and these can be dangerous and you can end up being bitten if the dog gets upset. Remember the Dobe is going to be a big dog . . . I would seek some professional help as dog to dog aggression really is no fun (one of mine is dog aggressive) and if not handled well can escalate and make walking/training/socialising very difficult. Basically I agree with Amhailte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TangerineDream Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 I would be very concerned at a young puppy showing that type of aggression. As the aggression seems to be generally to other dogs and not just as a dominance struggle, I think a behavourist would be a very good idea and I'd do it right now rather than waiting...but I would get a vet check first just to rule out anything physical that might trigger it. Btw, I wouldn't do anything like an alpha roll - I don't think that would help the situation, rather it might make it worse as you don't know what the trigger for the aggression is. Do you know anything about the pup's background? How does she react to people when there are no other dogs around? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadow Posted January 24, 2007 Author Share Posted January 24, 2007 I would be very concerned at a young puppy showing that type of aggression. As the aggression seems to be generally to other dogs and not just as a dominance struggle, I think a behavourist would be a very good idea and I'd do it right now rather than waiting...but I would get a vet check first just to rule out anything physical that might trigger it.Btw, I wouldn't do anything like an alpha roll - I don't think that would help the situation, rather it might make it worse as you don't know what the trigger for the aggression is. Do you know anything about the pup's background? How does she react to people when there are no other dogs around? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadow Posted January 24, 2007 Author Share Posted January 24, 2007 ["I would be very concerned at a young puppy showing that type of aggression. Do you know anything about the pup's background? How does she react to people when there are no other dogs around?" (forgive the clumsiness of this reply - I am new to all this stuff!) Yes, we are very concerned. Both dogs are from the RSPCA and according to their staff the father of the doberman X was quite "pushy", no news on the mother. Vet check has been done and she is thriving. When no dogs are around she is a joy - a real lap dog and great with the kids - a little on the excitable side - but she still is young. We will definently look into the behaviour therapist - does any one have any good ones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayreovi Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 I don't know if this would work for your Dobe but something has to be done. It sounds like it needs to be taken down a peg on the heirarchy. When it starts getting nasty, rouse on it (and mean it). If it carries on then put the Dobe on its back, your hand over its throat (imitating a dogs mouth) and growl like hell at it. Basically, you are acting like a dog and placing the Dobe in a submissive position. The only problem is that consistency is the key and make sure your Dobe does not get jealous of your Lab. The sin bin is also a good idea, as mentioned above. I would hate to be your dog. Have you been bitten yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ianto Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 (edited) Shadow: We will definently look into the behaviour therapist - does any one have any good ones? Contact K9 Force via PM or email he is in the Hawkesbury area of NSW. If you're not in NSW he can probably refer you to someone in your area. Amhailte and Nekhbet have given some very good advice too. Here's some links: Nothing in life is free (NILIF) Triangle of Temptation (TOT) Both of these programs are a non-confrontational method of allowing your dogs to choose to respect you as their leader. edited to fix links Edited January 24, 2007 by Yvonne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoL Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 I would hate to be your dog. Have you been bitten yet? Actually never and I treat all of my dogs like my babies and I don't thank you for inferring otherwise. The most dominant dog of the pack is my best friend in the whole world and I used this technique on him once when he was way out of hand as a 6 mth old and he's never tried it on again, so therefore I've never used it on him again. Actually I didn't realise it was such a contraversial move. I'm interested from an educational standpoint as to why and also of the alternatives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Actually I didn't realise it was such a contraversial move. I'm interested from an educational standpoint as to why and also of the alternatives. Where do I start? The "Alpha Roll" is based on flawed ideas about how wolf society works (wolves don't normally push each other over to prove their dominance, they don't alpha roll each other). The "Alpha Roll" can get you seriously bitten in the face or arms if your dog decides he doesn't want to be rolled, or if he reacts fearfully to being rolled. The "Alpha Roll" is unnecessary. There are other ways of getting respect from your dog that don't involve placing yourself in physical danger. NILIF, ToT, tethering, Shirly Chong's Mindgames, Leerburg's "Groundwork", Jan Fennel's "Amichien bonding", etc. Most importantly, though - even if you use this technique on your own dog it's still not a good idea to recommend it on a forum to other people, because you don't know if their dog is more aggressive or more fearful than your dog, and they could get hurt trying to apply your advice. Hope that helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khan28 Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 What sort of dogs do you have Enmark? There probably isnt any hard and fast rule to what works and if it works for you then great...................I have a GSD that is aggressive to other dogs, one end is all teeth and drool and frightening but then his tail is wagging and I cannot do a thing but avoid other dogs, I would try anything to change him but he is almost 7 and I dont think he is going to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoL Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Dear Amhailte and Khan28 Thank you for your replies as yours especially Amhailte was from a factual and educational perspective, rather than an insultory or derogatory one. Naturally I have never tried this technique on anybody elses dogs but my own and the point you make about telling someone else to is valid and taken on board. I'm not in a position of thinking I am perfect and am always open to learning something (you can teach an old dog new tricks after all). I just really resented the fact that a mere suggestion made with the intent of helping led to someone criticising the way I looked after my dogs. I will look into the other ways of teaching, thank you. I breed and exhibit staffies. As you may know, if they get into a fight frenzy, nothing can stop them unless you are prepared to dive in between them. I have 4 adults (boys and girls) and one bitch pup and I am not in the habit of keeping dogs in crates or runs all day, but I also look after my 2 young kids so I need to know that I can diffuse the situation with a word before it gets to that stage so I need to be alpha. I am lucky that my dogs listen to me in that situation. However, I also believe that more discipline when pups equals more respect when adults so I tend to be strict on the puppies and easier on the dogs because they've learnt their lessons. Does that make sense? Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khan28 Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Enmark........make perfect sense to me. Lovely dogs Staffys. You do what works for you, and you have taken on board advise, its alearning curve just like being a mother what works for one kid may not work for another mother! Although I dont know about the sleeper hold on a child...................LOL PS My brother has a Staffy, her name is Petal, always gives the vets a bit of a giggle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 (edited) I breed and exhibit staffies. As you may know, if they get into a fight frenzy, nothing can stop them unless you are prepared to dive in between them... I need to know that I can diffuse the situation with a word before it gets to that stage so I need to be alpha. Believe me, I do know! I have an 8 year old staffy bull boy who I adopted as an adult - he jumps at the chance to fight with strange dogs if he thinks he'll get away with it, and will cheerfully do them serious injury if allowed to do so. I honestly sometimes think that he views every other canine as a giant squeaky chew toy put on earth for his amusement! Do you do competitive obedience etc with your staffies Emmark, or just show them in conformation? (Sorry for the OT!) Edited January 25, 2007 by Amhailte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoL Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Although I dont know about the sleeper hold on a child...................LOL No, never tried THAT technique, though a bear hug has come into play during a tantrum LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khan28 Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 LOL maybe thats my trouble, my boy thinks other dogs are a squeaky toy...........I like that, I now have a reason for his behaviour he! he! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khan28 Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 The bear hug could work for both the kids and furkids, god knows they all have tantrums Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayreovi Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Thank you for your replies as yours especially Amhailte was from a factual and educational perspective, rather than an insultory or derogatory one. Thats because they have been the only two to reply to your request for information as why it is wrong. Can i ask why you think it is right to physically force your dog into a submissive position? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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